1

         1                           STATE OF FLORIDA
                            DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS
         2
                SUGAR CANE GROWERS COOPERATIVE OF
         3      FLORIDA, INC., ROTH FARMS, INC.,
                and WEDGWORTH FARMS, INC.,
         4
                and
         5
                FLORIDA SUGAR CANE LEAGUE, INC.,
         6      UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION,
                and NEW HOPE SOUTH, INC.,
         7
                and
         8
                FLORIDA FRUIT AND VEGETABLE           CASE NOs. 	92-3038
         9      ASSOCIATION, LEWIS POPE FARMS,                 		92-3039
                W.E. SCHLECHTER & SONS, INC., and              		 92-3040
        10      HUNDLEY FARMS, INC.,
        11               Petitioners,
        12      vs.
        13      SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
                DISTRICT,
        14
                         Respondent,
        15
                and
        16
                MICCOSUKEE TRIBE OF INDIANS OF
        17      FLORIDA, the UNITED STATES OF
                AMERICA, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT
        18      OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, and
                FLORIDA WILDLIFE FEDERATION,
        19
                         Intervenors.
        20       . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /
        21
        22
        23                  DEPOSITION OF RANDALL L. ARMSTRONG
        24                           February 11, 1993
        25

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                                                                        2
         1
         2                    DEPOSITION OF RANDALL L. ARMSTRONG
         3               Taken in the above-styled cause, pursuant to
         4      notice, at the Phoenix Environmental Group, Inc., 911 East
         5      Park Avenue, Tallahassee, Florida, on February 11, 1993,
         6      commencing at 9:00 a.m.
         7
         8                             Reported by:
         9                           JERRY L. ROTRUCK
        10                         Certificate of Merit
        11
        12
        13
        14
        15
        16
        17
        18
        19
        20
        21
        22
        23
        24
        25



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                                                                        3

         1      APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
         2      On behalf of the Petitioners Florida Sugar Cane League,
               Inc., United States Sugar Corp. and New Hope
        3      South, Inc.:
        4      William L. Hyde, Esq.
               Peeples, Earl & Blank
        5      215 South Monroe Street
               Suite 350
        6      Tallahassee, FL  32301
        7      On behalf of the Intervenor United States of America:
        8      Steve Bartell, Esq.
                U.S. Department of Justice
        9      Environmental and Natural Resources Division
                General Litigation Section
        10      601 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
                Fifth Floor, Room 5613
        11      Post Office Box 663
                Washington, D.C.  20004-0663
        12      (202) 272-4248
        13      On behalf of the Intervenor Department of Environmental
                Regulation:
        14
                Keith C. Hetrick, Esq.
        15      Donna LaPlant, Esq.
                Assistant General Counsel
        16      State of Florida
                Department of Environmental Regulation
        17      Twin Towers Office Building
                2600 Blair Stone Road
        18      Tallahassee, FL  32399-2400
        19
        20
        21
        22
        23
        24
        25



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                                                                        4

         1                           INDEX TO WITNESS
         2      RANDALL L. ARMSTRONG                             Page
         3          Examination by Mr. Hetrick                     6
         4
         5
         6
         7
         8
         9                          INDEX TO EXHIBITS
       10      No.                                             Marked
       11      1                                                  10
       12      2                                                 167
       13      3                                                 170
       14
       15
       16
       17
       18
       19
       20
       21
       22
       23
       24
       25


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                                                                        5

         1                        S T I P U L A T I O N
         2               IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between counsel
         3      appearing for the respective parties as follows:
         4               THAT the deposition of RANDALL L. ARMSTRONG was
         5      taken by agreement for the purpose of discovery, for use as
         6      evidence, and for such other purposes as may be permitted
         7      by the Florida Rules of Civil Procedure and other
         8      applicable law;
         9               THAT all objections, except as to the form of the
        10      question, are reserved until the trial of this cause;
        11               THAT by agreement of the witness and all parties,
        12      reading and signing of the deposition was not waived.
        13
        14
        15
        16
        17
        18
        19
        20
        21
        22
        23
        24
        25

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                                                                        6

         1                          D E P O S I T I O N
         2      Whereupon,
         3                         RANDALL L. ARMSTRONG
         4      was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn to
         5      speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
         6      truth, was examined and testified as follows:
         7                              EXAMINATION
         8      BY MR. HETRICK:
         9          Q    Mr. Armstrong, my name is Keith Hetrick.  I am an
        10      Assistant General Counsel with the Department of
        11      Environmental Regulation, and I am here to depose you to
        12      find out your opinions regarding the SWIM challenge that is
        13      at issue here.
        14               Have you ever been deposed before?
        15          A    Yes, I have.
        16          Q    Then you have been through this before and you
        17      probably know somewhat how it works, but let me just run
        18      through it briefly.
        19               I am here, as I said, to find out what you know
        20      about the case and what your opinions are going to be about
        21      this case and the basis for those opinions and what you are
        22      going to testify to, so I will be asking you a series of
        23      questions.  You need to answer those questions to the best
        24      of your knowledge and ability.  If you don't understand the
        25      question, let me know, and I will rephrase the question.

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         1      If your counsel objects, you need to go ahead and answer
         2      the question anyway, unless he instructs you not to
         3      answer.  We will try to resolve the objection as we go
         4      along.
         5               If you get tired, if you want to take a break,
         6      just let me know, and we can recess at any point in time to
         7      take a break or whatever.
         8               Do you understand how this works, then?
         9          A    Yes, I do.
        10          Q    Let me -- let's go through the notice of
        11      deposition first.  I just want to run through documents.  I
        12      am not going to attach this as an exhibit.
        13               MR. HETRICK:  Off the record.
        14               (Discussion off the record.)
        15               MR. HETRICK:  Let's go back on the record.
        16      BY MR. HETRICK:
        17          Q    I am going to show you a copy, it is not going to
        18      be attached as an exhibit since it is a pleading document,
        19      but Mr. Armstrong, have you seen this document?
        20          A    Yes, I have.
        21          Q    Have you reviewed it with your counsel?
        22          A    Yes, I have.
        23          Q    I would like to go through it one by one and
        24      see -- it is my understanding you do not have any documents
        25      to produce, is that correct?



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                                                                        8
         1          A    That is correct.
         2          Q    Let's just go through each one of these, and I
         3      want to make sure that the production to the best of your
         4      ability is done for each one of these.
         5               No. 1, have you produced any and all documents
         6      relied upon in preparing, formulating, developing,
         7      authoring, co-authoring, reviewing or organizing
         8      anticipated expert testimony relating to the subject matter
         9      of this action?
        10          A    Yes, I have.
        11          Q    Have you complied with -- would you take a second
        12      to review paragraph 2, any and all documents relating to
        13      DER policies and procedures about which you anticipate
        14      testifying in this case?
        15          A    Yes, I have.
        16               MR. HYDE:  Let me interject for a moment.
        17               MR. HETRICK:   Sure.
        18               MR. HYDE:  I hurriedly this morning prepared a
        19          privileged list that consists of two documents.  I will
        20          give them to you right now.  It is correspondence
        21          between Randy and myself.
        22               MR. HETRICK:  Okay.
        23               MR. HYDE:  I apologize for not having provided it
        24          to you earlier.  I was going to send out a copy of this
        25          to everyone.



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                                                                        9
         1               MR. HETRICK:  Thank you.
         2      BY MR. HETRICK:
         3          Q    No. 3?
         4          A    Yes.
         5          Q    And No. 4?
         6          A    Yes.
         7               MR. HYDE:  I would also like to make another
         8          point for the record.  Given Mr. Armstrong's former
         9          employment for the Department, many of the documents
        10          that are called for in this notice are, in fact, in the
        11          Department's possession.
        12               MR. HETRICK:  The only thing I would like to say
        13          on the record is, that may be true, but if he is going
        14          to -- we have millions of documents on file.  If he is
        15          going to rely on a particular document at trial and
        16          have that introduced or rely on it in any way, I think
        17          it is within the scope of the rules to have that
        18          document produced, even though it may be in our files.
        19               MR. HYDE:  I have no dispute with that.  I am just
        20          saying that, for example, paragraph 4 -- well, I guess
        21          not even paragraph 4 has anything to do with it, but
        22          any and all documents in No. 3, well, that could
        23          theoretically go back to all of the correspondence that
        24          goes with earlier drafts of the SWIM Plan, too, so --
        25               MR. HETRICK:  But to illustrate my point, if he is



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                                                                        10
         1          going to rely on a particular document, then I would
         2          expect him to produce that document.
         3               MR. HYDE:  As far as the reliance thing goes,
         4          correct.
         5      BY MR. HETRICK:
         6          Q    No. 5?
         7          A    Yes, I supplied this to my attorney.
         8          Q    And No. 6?
         9          A    Yes.
        10          Q    And No. 7?
        11          A    Yes.
        12          Q    Now I would like to kind of go through your
        13      resume, and I do have copies of that.
        14               MR. HETRICK:  I would like to attach this as
        15          Exhibit 1.
        16               (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
        17      identification.)
        18      BY MR. HETRICK:
        19          Q    Mr. Armstrong, I would like to ask you a series of
        20      questions about your education and experience in various
        21      areas including job responsibilities, day-to-day work, so
        22      we can determine -- explore some of your background.
        23               Let's start with your education.  Where and when
        24      did you obtain your college degree?
        25          A    I received a Bachelor of Science degree in June of


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                                                                        11
         1      1971 from Florida State University.  My degree was in
         2      education, with a major emphasis on biology.
         3          Q    Was there a thesis at all connected with that
         4      degree?
         5          A    No, there was not.
         6          Q    Did you have any particular area of concentration?
         7          A    My particular area of concentration in the field
         8      of biology was in ecology, but that is a very broad term,
         9      of course.
        10          Q    What kinds of coursework did you have in
        11      connection with the ecological focus?
        12          A    I had a number of courses in population dynamics
        13      and succession and primarily general courses in ecology,
        14      dealing with both aquatic and terrestrial systems, more
        15      terrestrial than aquatic; basically just a broad range of
        16      studies in that field.
        17          Q    Did you have any coursework in chemistry at all?
        18          A    Quite a bit.
        19          Q    Can you describe what coursework in chemistry?
        20          A    I had qualitative and quantitative analysis.  I
        21      had organic chemistry.  I had specific courses I really
        22      cannot remember the names of.  I had I believe around 20
        23      hours, quarter hours of chemistry, which would have, if I
        24      recall, would have qualified me for a minor in chemistry
        25      had we had a minor program in education.

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                                                                        12
         1          Q    Did you have any physics courses?
         2          A    Yes, I did.
         3          Q    How many physics courses did you have?
         4          A    Two or three.
         5          Q    How about mathematical?
         6          A    Quite a bit.  I had geometry and trigonometry up
         7      through two courses of calculus, I believe.
         8          Q    I notice from your resume it talks about further
         9      studies.  Can you describe those further studies?
        10          A    Yes.  When I graduated from Florida State
        11      University, I lived in Orlando for a couple of years and,
        12      in fact, worked at Florida Technological University which
        13      is now the University of Central Florida, and in the course
        14      of that, the study that I was working on, I took several
        15      courses in primarily entomology, which is the study of
        16      insects and so forth, that were related to the research
        17      that I was doing at FTU.
        18          Q    What was the purpose of your further technical
        19      studies?
        20          A    At the time I had plans to enter the graduate
        21      program at Florida Technological University.  The graduate
        22      program did not get established in roughly the year that I
        23      was there, so I moved on to another position, but my intent
        24      was to pursue a graduate degree in marine science.
        25          Q    I notice it says here, "Various water sampling,

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                                                                        13
         1      analysis and modeling courses," and then it has paren,
         2      "(DER, USGS and EPA)," end parens.  What is that?
         3          A    For a number of years while I was working for the
         4      Department of Environmental Regulation, there were courses
         5      offered by the Department and by the U.S. Geological Survey
         6      and Environmental Protection Agency dealing with water
         7      quality analysis and computer modeling and the development
         8      of wasteload allocations, which was a field that I worked
         9      in for the Department for approximately 11 years.
        10               Those courses dealt with field measurements and
        11      field techniques and laboratory analysis of collected water
        12      quality data, and then scientific analysis of the data
        13      using either statistical or computer-based techniques.
        14          Q    You took those courses while you were working with
        15      the Department?
        16          A    That is correct.
        17          Q    Over the entire span of time you were working for
        18      the Department, or was there a specific period of time?
        19          A    I took a number of courses over the 18 plus or
        20      minus years I was with the Department, but I believe about
        21      11 of those years when I was in the Water Quality Analysis
        22      Section I probably took the majority of those courses.
        23      That was probably the most technical position or series of
        24      positions that I held for the Department, and many of us in
        25      that program were trying to take as many related courses as

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                                                                        14
         1      we could during that period.
         2          Q    What kinds of water sampling modeling did you
         3      undertake?
         4          A    Sampling, modeling, or both?
         5          Q    Sampling, let's start with that.
         6          A    We took physical, chemical and biological
         7      measurements in support of those job responsibilities, and
         8      others with the agency, but primarily while I was with that
         9      section.
        10               Physical measurements included velocity and flow
        11      measurements and water clarity and things like that.
        12      Chemical included the whole range of water quality
        13      parameters that the Department normally focuses on.
        14      Biological included some microinvertebrate sampling,
        15      bacteriological sampling, parameters such as those.
        16          Q    What kind of modeling type courses?
        17          A    We were developing water quality models of rivers
        18      and streams and lakes and estuaries around the state,
        19      primarily for the purpose of developing wasteload
        20      allocations which were used in the Department's regulatory
        21      process.
        22          Q    At the time that you were developing wasteload
        23      modeling procedures, did you do any work in the
        24      Everglades?
        25          A    Yes.



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                                                                        15
         1          Q    And what were the circumstances surrounding that?
         2          A    Well, there were a number of issues dealing with
         3      Lake Okeechobee and the Everglades that surfaced during
         4      that period.  We looked at several of the municipalities
         5      that are located around Lake Okeechobee and on the edge of
         6      the Everglades for development of sewage treatment and
         7      disposal options for those cities.
         8               We were involved in trying to secure grant funding
         9      from the Environmental Protection Agency for many of those
        10      cities.
        11               I got involved some in the modeling of Lake
        12      Okeechobee for addressing water quality problems in the
        13      lake, and as a result of that was involved in a peripheral
        14      sense in the issue of back pumping water south into the
        15      Everglades as opposed to discharging into Lake Okeechobee.
        16               I don't recall any specific Everglades issues, but
        17      those were related to the whole situation of flow regime
        18      and drainage system in the Everglades and Lake Okeechobee.
        19          Q    Were you concerned with any specific water quality
        20      violations in either Lake Okeechobee or the Everglades in
        21      connection with your work down there?
        22          A    Yes, I was.
        23          Q    What kinds of specific --
        24          A    The majority of our work in those days dealt with
        25      the dissolved oxygen standard, with nutrients, nutrient



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                                                                        16

         1      controls, with bacteriological standards, and I would say
         2      those were the primary areas of focus.
         3          Q    Let's run through your work experience, and kind
         4      of start from when you got out of school, and if you could
         5      just kind of run through and explain, start with the
         6      National Science Foundation, 6/71 to 9/71.  What did you do
         7      with the National Science Foundation?
         8          A    When I graduated from Florida State University, I
         9      accepted a teaching position in Orlando for the Orange
        10      County School Board.  During the summer prior to the start
        11      of the 1971 school session, I participated in a National
        12      Science Foundation grant to develop an aquatic ecology
        13      curriculum for the Orange County School Board.
        14               We were involved in actually sampling and analysis
        15      of water quality data for about half of the time, and the
        16      other half of the time we were developing the curriculum,
        17      looking for textbooks and procedures that we could use in a
        18      high school classroom situation, and we were to begin
        19      teaching those courses that we developed in the fall of
        20      1971.
        21          Q    What kinds of -- it says here "biological
        22      parameters."  What kinds of biological parameters were you
        23      concerned with?
        24          A    We did bacteriological sampling, we did
        25      chlorophyll analysis as a measurement of algal activity.



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                                                                        17
         1      We did some qualitative microinvertebrate sampling; a
         2      fairly broad-brush analysis.
         3          Q    Was this a limited three-month grant?
         4          A    Yes, it was.
         5          Q    And the next position?
         6          A    I actually began teaching in September of 1971 at
         7      Edgewater High School in Orlando.  I taught the courses
         8      that we had developed through the summer to accelerated
         9      high school science students.  I did teach, although I
        10      don't believe it is reflected here, I taught a couple of
        11      just basic biology courses, but my primary responsibilities
        12      were in teaching the courses that I had developed through
        13      the summer.
        14          Q    Did you do any research while you were --
        15          A    No, I did not, not at the Edgewater High School
        16      position.
        17          Q    And the next position?
        18          A    I left.
        19          Q    Excuse me, before I go to that, I notice Edgewater
        20      was only one month, or is that --
        21          A    That is not a typo.
        22          Q    What was the reason for one month at Edgewater?
        23          A    I actually -- before I started teaching at
        24      Edgewater, one of the four professors that were managing
        25      the grant that we were working on through the summer, the



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                                                                        18
         1      National Science Foundation grant, had offered me a
         2      position as a research biologist at Florida Technological
         3      University doing the same type of work I had been doing
         4      through the summer.  The university was planning to start
         5      the Master's program, and I was interested in pursuing a
         6      Master's degree.
         7               The work that we would do in the Institute had not
         8      been funded at that point in time, so I discussed with the
         9      Edgewater High School principal the option of beginning to
        10      teach the school year, but they knew that I was going to be
        11      leaving and going to Florida Technology University.  The
        12      grant then came through within a month or so after starting
        13      the high school term, and I resigned and accepted a
        14      position at Florida Technological University.
        15          Q    And that was the next position you went to on your
        16      resume?
        17          A    That is correct.
        18          Q    It says here that you -- your primary job was as a
        19      research biologist, and, "Major functions consisted of
        20      planning and conducting a systematic survey of aquatic
        21      weeds and related problems in the central Florida area."
        22          A    Yes.
        23          Q    Would you elaborate on that a bit?
        24          A    The study was funded by the State of Florida
        25      through the Department of Natural Resources.  The emphasis



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                                                                        19
         1      of the work was on assessing the extent of the aquatic weed
         2      problem in central Florida.  Aquatic weeds were affecting
         3      navigation and the flow of water and perhaps the quality of
         4      many of the area lakes and streams.
         5               We were charged with assessing the extent of the
         6      problem, determining which aquatic weed species were
         7      causing the problem and doing some general studies of the
         8      biological -- let me see if I can rephrase that -- the
         9      extent, the health of those aquatic weeds.
        10               We were looking, for example, at what insects were
        11      feeding on those weeds and other animals, because the
        12      ultimate product of the study was to be -- was hopefully
        13      going to be a biological control program for those aquatic
        14      weeds.
        15          Q    What kinds of weeds were you concerned with?
        16          A    We were looking primarily at hydrilla and hyacinth
        17      and to a lesser extent alligator weed and a few other less
        18      extensive weeds in terms of coverage.
        19          Q    What were your conclusions reached on that
        20      study?
        21          A    In general, I would say we concluded that there
        22      was an extensive aquatic weed problem.  We covered many of
        23      the waters in the central Florida area and found, of
        24      course, varying degrees of weed coverage, but an extensive
        25      problem.  We found a few insects primarily that were


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                                                                        20
         1      feeding on both emergent and submerged aquatic weeds,
         2      floating weeds like hyacinth being one and submerged weeds
         3      like hydrilla being another, but one of our conclusions was
         4      that those insects that are normally found in Florida were
         5      not doing much to control those weeds.
         6               One of our recommendations which ought to be
         7      considered in this effort was to use some of those insects
         8      perhaps as vectors for diseases that might be introduced
         9      and spread by those insects.  Those were the major
        10      conclusions.
        11          Q    By "extensive problems," do you mean an increase
        12      in the amount of weeds?
        13          A    Well, in the short term of our study we really
        14      couldn't document whether the extent of the problem was
        15      increasing or decreasing, but when we looked in this period
        16      of time, there was an extensive problem.  Many of the
        17      waterways were virtually clogged with these weeds, and it
         18      was not an isolated problem.  We found it throughout the
        19      state, central part of the state.
        20          Q    And the resolution to this problem?
        21          A    The problem has not been resolved.  One of our
        22      conclusions was that the weeds were not going to be
        23      controlled by the biological processes that were going on
        24      in the state right now, but those processes such as insects
        25      feeding on those weeds might be used in conjunction with



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                                                                        21
         1      other techniques to introduce control measures that were
         2      not in place at that time.
         3          Q    And your next position?
         4          A    The grant that I was working on began winding
         5      down, and I had an opportunity to accept a position as a
         6      laboratory technician with the Florida Department of
         7      Pollution Control in their Central Region office in
         8      Orlando.  I moved to that position in July of 1972.
         9          Q    It says here, "Responsibilities included the
        10      design, development and maintenance of a regional
        11      microbiological laboratory."
        12          A    That is correct.
        13          Q    Did that come about?
       14          A    Yes.
       15          Q    What was the purpose of that project?
       16          A    The Department did not have microbiological
        17      sampling capabilities in its district offices.  It had
        18      relied on the health department, health departments around
        19      the state for microsampling, and the Department purchased
        20      equipment and placed it in the district offices, and one of
        21      my responsibilities was to install that equipment, get it
        22      up and running and begin actual sampling of water bodies in
        23      our region.
        24          Q    It says here, "A significant amount of time was
        25      also spent conducting biological and chemical surveys at



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                                                                        22

         1      proposed dredge and fill sites."  What kinds of sites?
         2          A    Any proposed dredging and filling activities, such
         3      as the development of a new marina, housing project, road-
         4      widening project or new road location.  It was basically
         5      the forerunner of the current Department's dredge and fill
         6      program.
         7          Q    Were you restricted primarily to the Orlando area,
         8      or did you cover different counties?
         9          A    We had -- it varied because the boundaries shifted
        10      somewhat, but we had about 10 or 12 counties in the
        11      central Florida area, centered around Orlando, of course.
        12          Q    And your next position, which was, I believe, from
        13      4/73 to 8/73?
        14          A    Basically, the position I was in there was
        15      upgraded, the responsibilities were very similar.  Again, I
        16      was working in -- on the dredge and fill program and doing
        17      actual water quality analysis and including not just
        18      microbiological but chemistry and biology samples as well.
        19          Q    And the next position?
        20          A    In August of 1973, I accepted a position in
        21      Tallahassee, in the Department's headquarters office, in
        22      the Water Quality Analysis Section.  We were at that time
        23      collecting and summarizing water quality data in
        24      preparation of what was called 303e basin plans.
        25               These were -- this was a planning effort required


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                                                                        23
         1      by the Environmental Protection Agency to look at the water
         2      quality of the hydrologic basins in the state of Florida,
         3      assess the quality of those basins, assess the discharges
         4      and activities that were impacting that water quality and
         5      begin to develop a basin-wide plan for protecting and
         6      improving water quality around the state.
         7          Q    What were you particularly concerned with with
         8      regard to these kinds of discharges?
          9          A    The majority of the work in those basins was on
        10      sewage treatment and industrial discharges.  My particular
        11      area of focus was on biological data, but the overall
        12      thrust of the effort was to look at permitted sewage and
        13      industrial discharges or discharges that should have been
        14      permitted and had not been at that time.
        15          Q    Where were these 303e basin plans?  What area did
        16      they cover?
        17          A    They covered the entire state.
        18          Q    Did you get into the Everglades at all in that
        19      position?
        20          A    Yes, we did.
        21          Q    What was your involvement in the Everglades in
        22      connection with this position?
        23          A    My involvement in the Everglades was very
        24      limited.  There were four of the basins in the state that
        25      were done primarily under contract, the south Florida basin

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                                                                        24

         1      being one of them, east coast, St. Johns, and I don't
         2      remember the fourth one, but our group basically had a
         3      project management role in the south Florida area because
         4      much of that work was done under contract.
         5          Q    Did you look at any form of nutrient impacts on
         6      the Everglades in connection with that position, or
         7      agricultural runoff?
         8          A    I don't recall specifically that I did.  I
          9      remember that being addressed in a very general sense in a
        10      report.  I did not have much involvement in that work.
         11          Q    Do you recall what kinds of nutrients at all might
        12      have been discussed?
        13          A    Not specifically, no.
        14          Q    And your next position -- you were there at this
        15      Environmental Specialist II for 10 months?
        16          A    Yes.
        17          Q    And then were you promoted?
        18          A    Yes, I was.
        19          Q    And you were promoted to a Biologist III?
        20          A    That is correct.
        21          Q    And what was the difference between that position
        22      and your previous position?
        23          A    The new position as a Biologist III was in the
        24      same bureau but in the biological section.  It was the
        25      technical assistance section to other units within the



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                                                                        25
         1      Department.
         2               My primary focus was on the collection and
         3      analysis of biological data that was being collected by the
         4      Department's biologists around the state.  We had a
         5      monitoring program consisting of, give or take, 100
         6      sampling points around the state.  Our district biologists
         7      were collecting data at those sampling points and
         8      submitting it to Tallahassee.  I analyzed and summarized
         9      that information.
        10          Q    Did you look at any specific kind of data?
        11          A    We were collecting primarily microinvertebrate
        12      data, data on aquatic insects, for example, to determine
        13      the relative health of water bodies.
        14          Q    Your next position?
        15          A    I moved back to the Water Quality Analysis
        16      Section, again, had a promotion, and began developing
        17      wasteload allocations, which were water quality studies of
        18      bodies of water for the purpose of developing permit
        19      limitations for discharges to those water bodies.
        20               This was basically an extension of the earlier
        21      effort that had gone on with respect to 303e basin
        22      planning.  The Department began to focus on problem reaches
        23      of water bodies that had been identified in the 303e basin
        24      plans and developing permit limitations for discharges
        25      within those basins.


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         1          Q    Did you end up developing permit limitations?
         2          A    Actually, what we developed was what we called
        3      wasteload allocations.  Those were recommended discharge
         4      limitations that were then sent to our district offices for
         5      consideration in the permitting process.  We did not
         6      develop permit limitations, per se.  That, the permitting
         7      was done by the district offices.
         8          Q    What did those discharge limitations consist of,
         9      or those allocations, wasteload allocations?
        10          A    We were primarily looking at discharge
        11      constituents that might cause dissolved oxygen problems and
       12      violations of the Department's DO standard.  We looked at
        13      nutrient discharges, and in some cases, looked at other
        14      constituents.  For example, there were some industries that
        15      might be discharging metals and other parameters of
        16      concern.
        17          Q    Did you look specifically at phosphorus, do you
        18      recall?
        19          A    Yes, we did.
        20          Q    Did you reach any conclusions specifically with
        21      regard to phosphorus as a discharge?
        22          A    Can you be a little more specific?
        23          Q    As a discharge, as a limitation, as part of a
        24      wasteload allocation limitation.
        25          A    In some cases, we did restrict or develop


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                                                                        27

         1      recommended restrictions for the discharge of phosphorus.
         2          Q    Were they numeric limitations?
         3          A    Yes.
         4          Q    Do you recall -- can you give me any examples in
         5      any specific scenarios?
         6          A    For specific water bodies?
         7          Q    For specific water bodies.
         8          A    Yes.  We looked at many of the lakes in the St.
         9      Johns River basin and in the Kissimmee River basin.  We
        10      actually developed computer models of those lakes for the
        11      purpose of restricting discharges of both nitrogen and
        12      phosphorus from point sources or sewage and industrial
        13      treatment plants that might be located on those lakes or
        14      immediately adjacent to them.
        15          Q    Tell me a little bit more about the St. Johns.
        16      When was that?  When did that occur?
        17          A    Well, I am not sure I can give you specific dates,
        18      but in this period of time, we were going back and focusing
        19      on basins where we had identified problems.  There were a
        20      number of dischargers in the Kissimmee and St. Johns
        21      basins, dischargers that -- whose discharge entered the
        22      lakes within those basins.  Many of them were sewage
        23      treatment plants.  A number of them were citrus processing
        24      discharging plants, and through our basin planning effort,
        25      we had identified some water quality problems in those

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        1      lakes and began to go back and focus on those specific
        2      problems.
        3               Much of our work was in support, in this period of
        4      time was in support of an EPA grant funding program for the
        5      upgrading of municipal sewage treatment plants, so a lot of
        6      our work was not really geared to an enforcement mode or
        7      even a permit modification mode as much as it was to
        8      analyze alternatives that the municipalities would then
        9      come back and request funding to implement.
       10          Q    Did you reach any conclusions as to the cause of
       11      the problems in the St. Johns-Kissimmee River basin?  Let
       12      me be more specific.
       13          A    Please.
       14          Q    With regard to phosphorus and nitrogen?
       15          A    The modeling analyses that we did in that period
       16      were based on a model that was developed at the University
       17      of Florida that assumed that nitrogen and phosphorus acting
       18      as nutrients were equally important in causing water
       19      quality problems, and where we did an analysis that
       20      indicated that nutrients were a problem in a water body, we
       21      would restrict both the discharge of nitrogen and
       22      phosphorus to some level that we considered acceptable
       23      based on that model.
       24          Q    Did you have any fixed numeric limits that you
       25      established for that water body?



              A-1 STENOTYPE REPORTERS TALLAHASSEE,FLA 904-224-0722


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         1          A    No.
         2          Q    Did you ever determine what the source of the
         3      discharge was for those water bodies?
         4          A    That was --
         5          Q    The Kissimmee to St. Johns River basin?
         6          A    Well, that was the focus of our study.  We were
         7      looking for each -- for any water body that we studied, we
         8      were looking for the sources of nutrients and for the
         9      control of those sources of nutrients, and then the
        10      Department through the regulatory process would address
        11      those sources through permits or through upgrading of those
       12      discharges, or perhaps development, to developing alternate
        13      sources of discharge.
        14          Q    Were they point source discharges?
        15          A    Yes.
        16          Q    Did you reach any conclusions as to what those
        17      sources of discharge were?
        18          A    If I understand the question, we did in the sense
        19      that we wrote up our results and submitted those for
        20      review, and in those analyses we identified the sources
        21      that we had either sampled or gathered data on from some
        22      source and then analyzed through the wasteload allocation
        23      process; so in a sense, we reached conclusions that yes,
        24      there were discharges in some cases, and here was our
        25      assessment of their causes or contribution to causes of



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         1      nutrient problems and other parameters.
         2          Q    You say you wrote up analyses.  Were there reports
         3      on this?
         4          A    Yes, there were.
         5          Q    Do you recall what reports or where I could find
         6      those reports?
         7          A    I believe most of them are right behind me on that
         8      back shelf.  As far as I know, all of those reports would
         9      be in the files of the Wasteload Allocation Group here in
        10      the Department.  I believe they were all published, to my
        11      knowledge, and are on file with the Department.
       12          Q    Did you determine particular entities in
        13      connection with the St. Johns-Kissimmee River basin that
        14      were particularly responsible for discharges into the water
        15      body that were causing phosphorus, nitrogen, nutrient --
        16          A    When you say particular entities, specific
        17      dischargers?
        18          Q    Right.
        19          A    Yes, we did.
        20          Q    In those reports are identified?
        21          A    Yes.
        22          Q    Do you recall what types of entities they were?
        23          A    We identified various sources of what I would
        24      consider point and non-point sources, non-point being
        25      stormwater discharges and point sources being primarily

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                                                                        31
         1      sewage and industrial sources.
         2          Q    Any farming sources?
         3          A    Yes.
         4               Let me add a parenthetical note if I can.  In
         5      describing this process we were focusing on that 1975- '76
         6      period, but the process I am describing is basically the
         7      process that we were going through for a number of years.
         8      I was in that section for a number of years in different
         9      positions, so in answering your questions, some of the
        10      dates get a little fuzzy that many years ago.
        11          Q    Sure.
        12          A    But I am speaking in general to that period of
        13      time, not just November of '75 to April of '76.
        14          Q    In connection with the Kissimmee-St. Johns, we
        15      have talked about nitrogen and phosphorus.  Were there any
        16      other constituents that you looked at in particular?
        17          A    Yes.  As I mentioned earlier, we also looked at
        18      dissolved oxygen parameters, constituents within the
        19      discharges that might affect the water body's ability to
        20      meet the dissolved oxygen standard.  We also looked at
        21      bacteria and other pollutants that we might identify in our
        22      analysis for which the Department had standards that needed
        23      to be protected.
        24               So nutrients and dissolved oxygen were the two
        25      primary ones, but there were others, given the particular


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                                                                        32
         1      water body that we were looking at.
         2          Q    Of the nutrients that you looked at in that
         3      particular water body area, was there a particular nutrient
         4      or -- was there any primary nutrient that was the primary
         5      cause of the problem that you recall?
         6          A    No.
         7          Q    Was it a combination of factors?
         8          A    For the most part, our assumption in the
         9      techniques that we used equated nitrogen and phosphorus.
        10      We assumed those two nutrients were equally responsible for
        11      water quality conditions that we observed that related to
        12      nutrient discharges.
        13          Q    Did they, in fact, impact DO, the level of DO?
        14          A    Yes, they can.
        15          Q    In what way?
        16          A    It was our experience that when nutrient
        17      concentrations were high and other water quality problems
        18      became apparent, such as increased algal activity or
        19      increased macrophyte growth, that dissolved oxygen
        20      conditions in the water body could be affected, and we did
        21      some sampling and analysis to measure the degree of change
        22      or the amount of the effect in the water bodies.
        23          Q    Did you establish any correlations?
        24          A    Not a specific one.  Basically, we found that
        25      those changes were water-body-specific.  They were not



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                                                                        33

         1      measured to be the same in the different water bodies that
         2      we analyzed.  There were other factors that might affect
         3      the condition in the water body besides just the nutrient
         4      discharges.
         5          Q    Are you saying that they affected different water
         6      bodies in different ways?
         7          A    That is correct.
         8          Q    Let's move on to the next position, which is, I
         9      guess 4/76 to 4/79?
        10          A    Yes.  I was an Environmental Specialist IV, which
        11      was basically a subsection supervisor within that same
        12      Water Quality Analysis Section.  In addition to the
        13      technical responsibilities that I was just describing, I
        14      had some supervisory responsibilities in terms of
        15      scheduling and managing people that worked for me,
        16      supervising people that worked for me.
        17          Q    Would you say at that point that was the better
        18      part of your job, you did more management than technical,
        19      or was it about the --
        20          A    Better in the sense that I enjoyed it more.
        21          Q    More or less, in terms, did you do more
        22      supervisory work than technical work, or did you do more
        23      technical work than supervisory work?
        24          A    In that position, I probably did more technical
        25      work than supervisory work.  In working my way up through

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                                                                        34
         1      the ranks in that section, I was working elbow to elbow
         2      with people that I worked with at the same level in terms
         3      of position previously, and those people were professionals
         4      and knew their jobs.  I didn't really -- it didn't require
         5      much supervision on my part.  What I primarily did was
         6      focus on the technical problems that they were dealing with
         7      and help them develop solutions to those technical
         8      problems.  So my responsibilities, I think, remained
         9      primarily technical in that position.
        10          Q    In the technical sense, did you do -- did you
        11      handle similar types of responsibilities as in your
        12      previous position?
        13          A    Yes, I did.
        14          Q    And your next position?
        15          A    I became the administrator of the Water Quality
        16      Analysis Section in February of 1979.  I held that position
        17      for four or five years, five years, and in that position my
        18      responsibilities were more supervisory in nature and less
        19      technical.
        20          Q    I notice that it says, "Supervised staff engaged
        21      in analysis of data and development of wasteload
        22      allocations for discharge to state waters."  The
        23      development of wasteload allocations, is that a continuous
        24      process?  I notice that seems to be a continuing theme in
        25      the previous --


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                                                                        35

         1          A    It is a continuous process in a number of ways.
         2      The process continued primarily because we did not have
         3      enough staff to go in and development wasteload allocations
         4      for all of the dischargers of the state in a short period
         5      of time.  There were many, many of those dischargers.  We
         6      revised those based on the basin planning effort and tried
         7      to go in and focus on the ones that seemed to have the
         8      problems that needed addressing.
         9               It was also continuous in the sense that the
        10      Department was continuing to develop new standards and
        11      continued to collect water quality data that pointed out
        12      problems that we may not have known about in the past, and
        13      also continuous in the sense that new dischargers were
        14      requesting permits to discharge to State waters.  So the
        15      process continued throughout this period and I guess
        16      continues today.
        17          Q    And your next position?
        18          A    I accepted a lateral transfer to another bureau in
        19      the Department and became, for a short term, at least,
        20      administrator of the Water Resources Planning Section.
        21          Q    How long were you in that position?
        22          A    About a month.
        23          Q    I seemed to have lost --
        24          A    That was from the period of September '84 to
        25      October of '84.


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         1          Q    Was that a temporary --
         2          A    No.  It was a permanent position.  I was requested
         3      by the division director to consider a lateral transfer to
         4      that position.  That was part of a reorganization effort
         5      that was underway in the division at the time.
         6          Q    What did the -- what was the Outstanding Florida
         7      Water Program?
         8          A    We were focusing on two primary areas.  One was
         9      the possible designation of waters -- well, back up a
        10      minute.
        11               The Outstanding Florida Water Program is a program
        12      that is included in the Department's rules where the
        13      Department provides a higher degree of protection to water
        14      bodies that are considered outstanding and have certain
        15      attributes and resources that the Department feels warrants
        16      a higher degree of protection.
        17               We looked at two primary areas.  One was water
        18      bodies that were -- that had received some other
        19      designations, for example, state parks and aquatic
        20      preserves that might be designated under another program,
        21      either state or federal.  The other would be water bodies
        22      that just because of the quality of those waters were
        23      worthy of additional protection.
        24               We held public workshops to gather information,
        25      and we polled citizens and other agencies about those water



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                                                                        37
         1      bodies and ultimately made recommendations to the
         2      Environmental Regulation Commission for possible
         3      designation of waters as Outstanding Florida Waters.
         4          Q    Had any waters been designated at that time as
         5      Outstanding Florida Waters?
         6          A    Yes, they had.
         7          Q    Were you, in effect, making recommendations to
         8      improve an existing program?
         9          A    Well, I would consider that part of my
        10      responsibilities in my position with the Department.
        11          Q    Let's go to the next employment.
        12          A    In October of 1984, I became bureau chief of the
        13      Bureau of Laboratories and Special Programs.  This was a
        14      newly created bureau that was part of the reorganization
        15      effort that I mentioned a few moments ago.  We had four
        16      sections within that bureau, the Drinking Water Section,
        17      the Biology and Chemistry Sections and the Water Resources
        18      Section that I mentioned earlier and was administrator of a
        19      month or so before.
        20          Q    In connection with that position, did you do more
        21      management than supervisory or technical work?
        22          A    Yes, I did.
        23          Q    And did you, in your technical capacity -- well,
        24      in any of those sections, at the time, was any work ongoing
        25      in the Everglades specifically that you focused on or any



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                                                                        38
         1      of your units that you were responsible for focused on,
         2      that you recall?
         3          A    Yes.
         4          Q    Can you describe what that work consisted of?
         5          A    I can give you some examples.  Our -- at this
         6      point in my career with the Department, we had many, many
         7      ongoing activities all around the state, but, for example,
         8      as the administrator of the Water Resources Section and as
         9      the bureau chief of the Bureau of Laboratories and Special
        10      Programs, we managed the public works program, which was a
        11      program where we actively sought federal support, financial
        12      support for water resources projects around the state.
        13      Many of those projects were identified by the South Florida
        14      Water Management District, for example, for improvements
        15      and maintenance of the water management system within the
        16      Everglades.  So that is an example of direct involvement in
        17      the Everglades issues.
        18               The Outstanding Florida Water Program included a
        19      number of water bodies that were designated as OFW or
        20      Outstanding Florida Waters in the Everglades.
        21          Q    Do you recall what those water bodies were in the
        22      Everglades that were designated as OFWs?
        23          A    They are scattered throughout.  The Loxahatchee is
        24      a good example.  The Biscayne Bay Aquatic Preserve is an
        25      example; many of them in that area scattered throughout the



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         1      general region.
         2               MR. HYDE:  I think we are running into some
         3          confusion here with the generic use of the term
         4          "Everglades."  I -- "Everglades" could mean Everglades
         5          National Park, it could mean the Everglades Protection
         6          Area, which is the subject matter of the Everglades
         7          SWIM Plan, and it could mean, in a more historic sense,
         8          virtually all of south Florida.  So I would like to --
         9          perhaps we could be more specific as to what type of
        10          Everglades we are referring to in those questions.
        11      BY MR. HETRICK:
        12          Q    Are you familiar with the Everglades Protection
        13      Area?
        14          A    In a general sense.
        15          Q    Can you tell me if all designations were made to
        16      Outstanding Florida Waters during your tenure?
        17          A    I can tell you they were not.
        18          Q    During your tenure as bureau chief, were there any
        19      specific designations of Outstanding Florida Waters made to
        20      the Everglades Protection Area?
        21          A    I don't recall any.  There may have been.  I don't
        22      recall specific --
        23          Q    Were there any existing designations during your
        24      tenure as bureau chief, designations that had already been
        25      made to the Everglades Protection Area?


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         1          A    I believe so.  I am actually not real sure what
         2      those boundaries were at that time.
         3          Q    Do you recall if the Loxahatchee had been
         4      designated?
         5          A    It was my recollection that it was, it had been.
         6          Q    How about the Everglades National Park?
         7          A    I believe so.
         8          Q    Your next position?
         9          A    That would be May of 1986 to February of 1987?
        10          Q    Right.
        11          A    I accepted a position as the bureau chief of the
        12      Bureau of Permitting with the Department in the Tallahassee
        13      office.
        14          Q    Why did you go from one bureau chief to the other
        15      bureau chief?
        16          A    It was an opportunity to learn about other
        17      programs within the Department.  I was encouraged by the
        18      Secretary to take that position.  I had not had direct
        19      experience in permitting at that point, and because of some
        20      changes within the Bureau of Permitting and the Division of
        21      Environmental Permitting, the Secretary asked me if I would
        22      consider moving to that position.
        23          Q    And your next position?
        24          A    I became director of the Division of Environmental
        25      Permitting, which included the Bureau of Permitting that I

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                                                                        41

         1      had been responsible for, in March of 1987, and continued
         2      in that position for a little over a year.
         3          Q    Did your position consist mostly of management, in
         4      that division director position?
         5          A    Yes, it did.
         6          Q    Did you do any technical work at that time?
         7          A    Not personally.  I reviewed technical work and
         8      participated in attempts to resolve technical problems, but
         9      my primary day-to-day responsibilities focused on
        10      supervision and management.
        11          Q    In your next position, you went to division
        12      director of Water Management?
        13          A    That is correct.
        14          Q    And what was the purpose for that change?
        15          A    We -- the Department was reorganized, and we
        16      established a division of responsibility based on
        17      programmatic areas.  The particular programs that I ended
        18      up responsible for, if you will, were primarily dredge and
        19      fill and stormwater management, coastal zone management.
        20          Q    Were you out of the permitting aspect of it at
        21      that time?
        22          A    No.
        23          Q    So even as, in your division director capacity of
        24      Water Management, you still performed activities in the
        25      area of permitting?



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                                                                        42
         1          A    Related to permitting, that is correct.
         2          Q    As division director, it lists a litany of
         3      statewide programs.  It mentions surface water improvement
         4      and management and coastal management.  What did you do
         5      specifically in connection with surface water management
         6      and improvement?  What programs were you involved in in
         7      that case, in that connection?
         8          A    In both of those areas?
         9          Q    Surface water improvement and management, those
        10      areas.
        11          A    In surface water improvement and management, we
        12      were -- in those days, we were beginning to set up a
        13      program that had been created by the Legislature for --
        14      called Surface Water Improvement Management, or SWIM, for
        15      short.  The program had been established and funded.  We
        16      began developing the rules for the implementation of that
        17      program, and the funding procedures.  The majority of money
        18      that was allocated by the Legislature was going to the five
        19      water management districts in the state, so we began
        20      developing the process to get that money to the water
        21      management districts and oversee the development of the
        22      SWIM planning effort by the water management districts.
        23          Q    What kind of process was that?
        24          A    In a sense, it was similar to the 303e basin plan.
        25      It was in that that the water management districts were



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                                                                        43

         1      required to assess their water resources problems in their
         2      areas, prioritize the water bodies based on the extent of
         3      the problems and develop plans for improving water quality
         4      and water resources within those water bodies, the high
         5      priority water bodies that they had identified.
         6          Q    Do you recall if the South Florida Water
         7      Management District undertook such a process and program?
         8          A    Yes, it did.
         9          Q    Do you recall how many water bodies they had to
        10      prioritize, just a rough estimate?
        11          A    Well, the -- it is not that they had to prioritize
        12      any particular number.  Some did more than others.  In
        13      south Florida, they were primarily focused on the Lake
        14      Okeechobee and Everglades systems.
        15          Q    Let's go on to your next position.
        16          A    Well, I left the Department at the end of October
        17      1991, and --
        18               MR. HYDE:  Excuse me, '90 or '91?
        19               THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, 1990, and established a
        20          private environmental consulting firm called Phoenix
        21          Environmental Associates, Inc., Tallahassee, Florida.
        22      BY MR. HETRICK:
        23          Q    Why did you leave the Department?
        24          A    I am not sure; maybe a mid-life crisis.  I felt it
        25      was time for a change.  I had been planning for a number of


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                                                                        44

         1      years to perhaps go on my own in the environmental
         2      consulting field.  I had an opportunity to do that with
         3      some people that I knew from outside the Department that
         4      encouraged me to do that, and I decided to take that
         5      plunge.
         6          Q    What were your -- can you tell me what your
         7      responsibilities are with the Phoenix -- you are still with
         8      the Phoenix Environmental Group?
         9          A    You skipped a position, actually.
        10          Q    Okay.
        11          A    From October of 1990 to October 1991, I was
        12      president of Phoenix Environmental Associates, Inc., and
        13      still am, in fact.
        14          Q    Okay.
        15          A    My partner and I decided rather than setting up
        16      one company, we would set up two different companies.  He
        17      had his own company and I had mine, and there were just the
        18      two of us for that first year.
        19               In November of 1991, we formed a third company,
        20      the Phoenix Environmental Group, Incorporated, which
        21      basically was a merger of our two companies, and we hired
        22      employees and began to expand.  Phoenix Environmental
        23      Associates still exists but is inactive, and I am working
        24      as executive vice-president of the Phoenix Environmental
        25      Group, Incorporated.


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                                                                        45

         1          Q    You say you have a partner in this position?
         2          A    Yes.
         3          Q    Who is that?
         4          A    His name is Russell Danser.
         5          Q    How many employees do you have?
         6          A    Six, including myself and Mr. Danser.
         7          Q    You have here, from 10/90 to 10/91, a series of --
         8      a description as to the types of projects that you worked
         9      on.  Are there any other project types that you worked on
        10      besides what you have listed here?
        11               MR. HYDE:  Everglades SWIM plans.
        12      BY MR. HETRICK:
        13          Q    Would that be about it, Everglades SWIM plans?
        14          A    Well --
        15               MR. HYDE:  He is not completely sucked into the --
        16               THE WITNESS:  No.  Actually, I am involved in a
        17          number of studies around the state.  Probably the one
        18          that is demanding the majority of my time right now is
        19          I am actually under contract to the Department of
        20          Environmental Regulation to look at State assumption of
        21          the federal 404 wetland permitting process, but we do a
        22          lot of actual permitting for private clients around the
        23          state.  I occasionally act as an expert witness in
        24          proceedings, usually administrative proceedings around
        25          the state.


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                                                                        46
         1      BY MR. HETRICK:
         2          Q    What is the federal Section 404 program?
         3          A    It is basically the dredge and fill permitting
         4      process at the federal level.  It is administered primarily
         5      by the Corps of Engineers, with some oversight and
         6      coordination with other federal agencies such as the
         7      Environmental Protection Agency, U.S. Fish and Wildlife
         8      Service, the National Marine Fisheries.  The State of
         9      Florida is interested in assuming those federal permitting
        10      responsibilities and basically trying to develop a one-stop
        11      permitting process for wetlands permitting projects, dredge
        12      and fill projects.
        13          Q    Is that statewide?
        14          A    Yes, it is.
        15          Q    Do you focus on any particular area of the state
        16      more than others?
        17          A    Geographically?
        18          Q    Geographically.
        19          A    No.
        20          Q    I want to go back just real quick to 7/88 to
        21      10/90, to that position where you were division director of
        22      Water Management, and I just wanted to ask you one
        23      question.
        24               Again, you listed a litany of responsibilities.
        25      Was more of your work at that time taken up by surface


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                                                                        47
         1      water improvement and management than the other areas, or
         2      were your responsibilities fairly well distributed among
         3      each of the areas you have listed here?
         4          A    Actually, neither, I would say.  The majority of
         5      my time was spent on wetland resource management projects,
         6      dredging and filling projects.
         7          Q    In any particular area of the state?
         8          A    No.
         9          Q    Statewide?
        10          A    Statewide.
        11               MR. HYDE:  Are you finished with that?
        12               MR. HETRICK:  Yes, I am finished.
        13               MR. HYDE:  Would it okay be to take a five-minute
        14          break?
        15               MR. HETRICK:  Yes.  Let's take a five-minute
        16          break.
        17               (Brief recess.)
        18      BY MR. HETRICK:
        19          Q    Mr. Armstrong, have you published any papers?
        20          A    Well, the majority of the publications that I was
        21      involved with were Department reports that I referred to
        22      earlier.  I was involved for a short time in a water
        23      quality study, this was in 1972 or '73, and I honestly
        24      cannot tell you the name of it, but it was a general
        25      assessment of water quality in the lower St. Johns basin,

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                                                                        48

         1      which is the Jacksonville area.
         2          Q    Let me ask you it this way.  Are there any
         3      particular reports throughout your tenure with the
         4      Department that you have had your name on that you can
         5      identify, that you recall, that you can identify?
         6          A    Yes.
         7          Q    Can you name those reports?
         8          A    No.
         9          Q    How many were there?
        10          A    I don't know.
        11          Q    Hundreds?
        12          A    At least tens.  The majority of the publications
        13      were in my 11 years or so with the Water Quality Analysis
        14      Section.  Those were the technical studies that I referred
        15      to and the development of procedures that we used in that
        16      section, but there were many documents that I am sure had
        17      my name on them, reports and studies that were done by the
        18      agency throughout the years.  I could not name them.
        19          Q    Were you involved in rulemaking?
        20          A    Yes, I was.
        21          Q    What rules?
        22          A    Again, many of the Department's rules dealing with
        23      the development, with water quality standards, the
        24      Department's permitting rules, the Department's dredge and
        25      fill rules, SWIM; many of them, with the exception of air



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                                                                        49

         1      and hazardous waste, although I actually had some
         2      involvement peripherally in those as well, especially as
         3      the director of the Division of Environmental Permitting.
         4      We had responsibility for all of the Department's
         5      permitting and enforcement programs within our division, so
         6      in that sense, I was involved in a general way in all of
         7      the Department's rules.
         8          Q    You were involved in, I take it, policy
         9      determinations on the applications of all of the
        10      Department's rules?
        11          A    Yes.
        12          Q    Throughout the course of your tenure?
        13          A    Yes; the majority of it, of course, obviously,
        14      primarily in the later years in higher level positions.
        15          Q    Did you make specific policy determinations with
        16      regard to OFWs, Outstanding Florida Waters?
        17          A    Yes.
        18          Q    The interpretation of the grandfathering of OFWs?
        19          A    Yes.
        20          Q    Interpretations relating to antidegradation
        21      policies of the Department?
        22          A    Yes.
        23          Q    Moderating provisions such as mixing zones,
        24      variances and site-specific alternative criteria?
        25          A    Yes.



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                                                                        50
         1          Q    You made policy determinations with regard to
         2      narrative nutrient rule?
         3          A    Yes.
         4          Q    The Department's nuisance species standard?
         5          A    Yes.
         6          Q    Biological integrity?
         7          A    Yes.
         8          Q    And dissolved oxygen?
         9          A    Yes.
        10          Q    Any others?
        11          A    I am sure there were.
        12          Q    Any others related specifically to water quality
        13      that you can recall?
        14          A    Well, not specifically, but I would say in a
        15      general sense that I was involved in policy discussions
        16      over probably all of the Department's water quality
        17      standards at some point in time, all of the standards that
        18      existed during, obviously during my tenure with the
        19      Department.
        20          Q    The present company that you work for now, do you
        21      do any work on the Everglades?
        22          A    Do I?
        23          Q    In your capacity with that company.
        24          A    Other than this?
        25          Q    Other than --


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                                                                        51

         1          A    This proceeding that we are in?
         2          Q    That we are in.
         3          A    I was involved for a short time in the assessment
         4      of some of the discharges in what are referred to as the
         5      298 drainage districts.  Those discharges primarily were to
         6      Lake Okeechobee.  That was, as I said, for just a short
         7      period of time, and I am no longer involved in that
         8      situation.  Those were related in a sense to the general
         9      geographical area of the Everglades, in a sense that if
        10      those discharges did not go to Lake Okeechobee, they have
        11      to go somewhere, and they would probably go to the south,
        12      toward the Everglades, but as I said, that was a relatively
        13      short period of time.  I am not involved in that issue any
        14      longer.
        15          Q    What did your limited involvement consist of?
        16          A    I was asked to review water quality data
        17      concerning those discharges and subsequently be available
        18      to testify in a permit proceeding the districts, the 298
        19      districts were seeking permits to continue discharging to
        20      Lake Okeechobee.  I got involved and for a number of
        21      reasons, primarily related to my scheduling and workload, I
        22      had to bow out of that process and could not agree to
        23      continue to put time in it.  So it was a relatively short
        24      period of time and I did not continue with it.
        25          Q    When was that period of time?


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                                                                        52

         1          A    It was, I would say, within the last year, maybe
         2      seven or eight months ago.
         3          Q    Did you make any water quality determinations with
         4      regard to any discharges related to that 298, related to
         5      the 298 --
         6          A    I began to review the data.  I actually went on
         7      site once and looked at the pump structures and the
         8      relationship of the 298 districts and so forth and had
         9      begun to review data that was being collected and had been
        10      collected, primarily, data in Lake Okeechobee, but I can't
        11      say that I carried that through to the point of reaching
        12      conclusions that I would had I written up reports, and
        13      certainly I did not testify in the situation.  I got
        14      involved in the process, and I just really could not afford
        15      to devote the time that I saw that it was going to take.
        16          Q    What kind of data did you review?
        17          A    It was data on solids conductivity.  It included
        18      nutrient data, general water quality data that had been
        19      collected, and flow data for those discharges.
        20          Q    How long were you involved in that?
        21          A    Probably off and on over about a three-month
        22      period.
        23          Q    You said you reached no conclusions, really, is
        24      that correct?
        25          A    Essentially, right.

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                                                                        53

         1          Q    Did you make any preliminary assessments with
         2      regard to either nutrients or flow data?
         3          A    No, I can't say that I really did.
         4          Q    Why did you bow out?
         5          A    Primarily because of workload.  The projects that
         6      we had underway in our company were demanding, and there
         7      were other consultants involved in that process that I felt
         8      could probably assume the responsibilities that I was being
         9      considered for, and I just really -- I saw that as probably
        10      being a project that was going to demand more of my time
        11      than I felt I would be willing to devote to it.
        12          Q    I want to go through just for a moment --
        13               MR. HETRICK:  Again, I am not going to offer this
        14          as an exhibit, but it is his designation.
        15               MR. HYDE:  All right.
        16      BY MR. HETRICK:
        17          Q    I want to focus for a minute, Mr. Armstrong, on
        18      the Sugar Cane League designation, which is -- I am not
        19      going to offer as an exhibit, but --
        20               MR. HETRICK:  Let's go off the record for a
        21          minute.
        22               (Discussion off the record.)
        23      BY MR. HETRICK:
        24          Q    Mr. Armstrong, who have you been retained by in
        25      this case?



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                                                                        54
        1          A    By the Sugar Cane League.
         2          Q    Does that also include the U.S. Sugar Co-op and
         3      New Hope South, Inc.?
         4          A    It is my understanding that it does.
         5               MR. HYDE:  Do you mean United States Sugar
         6          Corporation, not Co-op?
         7               MR. HETRICK:  Excuse me, that is correct.
         8      BY MR. HETRICK:
         9          Q    Have you been retained at all by any other entity
        10      such as the Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative or the -- let me
        11      rephrase that -- such as the Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative
        12      of Florida or Roth Farms, Inc., or Wedgworth Farms, Inc.?
        13          A    No.
        14          Q    Have you been retained by the Hopping Boyd law
        15      firm in any respect?
        16          A    No.
        17               MR. HYDE:  Keith, I have been looking through the
        18          Cooperative's -- is this under some supplemental thing,
        19          or where have they listed Randy?
        20               MR. HETRICK:  Let's go off the record for a
        21          moment.
        22               (Discussion off the record.)
        23               MR. HETRICK:  Let's go back on the record.
        24      BY MR. HETRICK:
        25          Q    Mr. Armstrong, do you -- have you had any


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                                                                        55

        1      conversations with the Hopping Boyd law firm or the Sugar
        2      Cane Growers Cooperative of Florida, Inc., or Roth Farms,
        3      Inc., and Wedgworth Farms, Inc., in connection at all with
        4      this proceeding that we are involved with right now, that
        5      you are here being deposed about today?
        6          A    Yes.
        7          Q    You have had conversations with them?
        8          A    Yes.
        9          Q    Do you anticipate testifying on any of those
       10      entities' behalf at this trial?
       11          A    I have not been approached about doing so, and I
       12      don't anticipate that at this point.
       13               MR. HYDE:  I think your previous question was a
       14          little broad.  "Conversations," maybe you can be a
       15          little more specific.
       16      BY MR. HETRICK:
       17          Q    In connection with the Everglades lawsuit that we
       18      are here on.
       19          A    Well, the extent of my conversations have
       20      primarily been in this room with Mr. Green, but not
       21      specifically to my ability or willingness to testify for
       22      them, I have not been approached about doing that.  Mr.
       23      Green has said, for example, when am I going to get to
       24      depose you, but no one has approached me about testifying
       25      for them on their behalf.


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                                                                        56
         1          Q    I have here in front of me, which I am not going
         2      to offer as an exhibit at this point, but it is a
         3      Petitioner's Witness List by the Sugar Cane Growers
         4      Cooperative of Florida, Roth Farms, Inc., and Wedgworth
         5      Farms, Inc., and it is dated on the next to the last page
         6      as submitted the 17th day of August, 1992, signed by
         7      William H. Green and Gary Perko, and you have a copy of
         8      that document in front of you as well, do you not?
         9          A    I believe I do.  I was looking for dates.
        10          Q    It is the next to the last page.
        11               MR. HYDE:  Keith, just for purposes of clarifying
        12          the record, it appears that this stapled-together
        13          document here you are referring to is actually several
        14          documents.
        15               THE WITNESS:  That was the point of my confusion.
        16               MR. HYDE:  One is Petitioner's Witness List, which
        17          has a service date of September 16, 1992, and then
        18          there is a Supplemental Expert Witness Designation
        19          which has a service date of -- appears to be September,
        20          I think it is, 16, 1992, and attached to both of them
        21          are resumes.  Excuse me, just to the latter are
        22          resumes.
        23      BY MR. HETRICK:
        24          Q    With that in mind -- the August 17th, 1992, date
        25      that I mentioned, let's strike that.  Let's go back to the



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                                                                        57

         1      document that you have in front of you identified as
         2      Petitioner's Witness List, and it is dated -- it is -- the
         3      number of pages in that are -- it is an 18-page document,
         4      and it is entitled, Petitioner's Witness List by Sugar Cane
         5      Growers Cooperative of Florida, Roth Farms, Inc., and
         6      Wedgworth Farms, Inc., and it is signed by William H. Green
         7      on the 26th day of October, 1992.
         8               MR. HYDE:  It looks like it is signed by Gary
         9          Perko.
        10               MR. HETRICK:  It is signed by Gary Perko with
        11          William L. Green's name on it.
        12      BY MR. HETRICK:
        13          Q    On page 6 of that document, would you turn to
        14      that, Mr. Armstrong?  Would you look at the very last
        15      paragraph 3 on page 67 of that document.  It says,
        16      "Department of Environmental Regulation officials and
        17      employees, past to present," and there is a list of
        18      employees.  Do you see your name included there?
        19          A    Yes, I do.
        20          Q    Is it correct for me to say at this point that
        21      they -- I will say for the record they have listed you, and
        22      you have no intentions at this time of testifying on their
        23      behalf?
        24          A    No, I do not.  I have not been approached about
        25      doing so.



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                                                                        58
         1          Q    And you have no employment ties or any kind of
         2      compensation ties to any of the entities, being the Sugar
         3      Cane Growers Co-op of Florida, Inc., Roth Farms, Inc.,
         4      Wedgworth Farms, Inc., or the Hopping Boyd law firm?
         5          A    I do not.
         6          Q    I will state for the record that should that be
         7      the case, if you are hired in the future, we will reserve
         8      our right to redepose you in connection with issues that
         9      they may raise that are not raised in this deposition.
        10               MR. HYDE:  I just will state for the record that I
        11          am obviously in no position and do not want to defend
        12          or challenge or to waive any of the, whatever arguments
        13          the Sugar Cane Growers Cooperative might have, but I
        14          think that the way you just stated it is an appropriate
        15          resolution of the issue.
        16               MR. HETRICK:  You stated --
        17               MR. BARTELL:  That sounds fine to me.  I agree
        18          with that.
        19      BY MR. HETRICK:
        20          Q    Mr. Armstrong, I may have asked this, I don't
        21      recall.  Were you hired in this matter by the Florida Sugar
        22      Cane League, Inc., or the United States Sugar Corp. or New
        23      Hope South, Inc., or the Peeples, Earl & Blank law firm or
        24      any or all of the above?  Just who in particular were you
        25      hired by?


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                                                                        59

         1          A    I was actually approached by the Peeples, Earl &
         2      Blank law firm and agreed to work for that firm in this
         3      matter.
         4          Q    When was that?
         5          A    It has been about three months ago, I think.
         6               MR. HYDE:  It was more than three months ago.
         7               THE WITNESS:  Time flies.  Maybe it was.
         8               MR. HYDE:  I think it was last summer.
         9      BY MR. HETRICK:
        10          Q    I have a document here, again which is a pleading
        11      I am not going to attach as an exhibit, but it is entitled,
        12      Disclosure of Expert and Fact Witnesses of Petitioners
        13      Florida Sugar Cane League, Inc., United States Sugar Corp.
        14      and New Hope South, Inc., and it is a 57-page document,
        15      apparently dated October 26, 1992.
        16               MR. HETRICK:  Do you agree with that?  Are you
        17          okay with that?
        18               MR. HYDE:  Sure.
        19      BY MR. HETRICK:
        20          Q    Are you aware of whether you are designated --
        21      what are you designated as in this case, an expert or fact
        22      witness?
        23          A    Expert witness.
        24          Q    If you could turn to page 17 of that document?
        25      Actually, page 18 -- well, page 18 is where your name

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                                                                        60

         1      appears, 17 is where your name appears and carries over to
         2      page 18.
         3               It says, Subject Matter of Expected Testimony:
         4      Department of Environmental Regulation policies and
         5      procedures.
         6               Are there any particular areas or policies --
         7      first of all, have you seen this designation before?
         8          A    Yes, I believe I have.
         9          Q    When did you first see this designation?
        10          A    I don't remember the specific month, but I assumed
        11      it was in preparation of this document I discussed with Mr.
        12      Hyde and others of the Peeples, Earl & Blank law firm the
        13      description of my testimony that would go into this
        14      document that was being submitted.
        15          Q    Was it within the past six months, or was it
        16      before that?
        17          A    It was probably about six months ago.  I am a
        18      little fuzzy on the dates.
        19          Q    Did you help in drafting these statements?
        20          A    Yes, I did.
        21          Q    Did you comment on any of the contents of these
        22      statements after they were developed?
        23          A    Yes.
        24          Q    Have you discussed this area of designation at all
        25      since you first reviewed it?



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                                                                        61


         1          A    Yes.
         2          Q    With whom?
         3          A    I have discussed it with Mr. Hyde in developing
         4      the extent of my proposed testimony, and I later received a
         5      call from an individual I believe in the Peeples, Earl &
         6      Blank Miami office, the name escapes me, but to review the
         7      description that was drafted that ultimately went into this
         8      document.
         9          Q    Do you recall when that might have been?
        10          A    Not specifically.
        11          Q    Do you agree that you have knowledge on all of
        12      these areas that are listed for you?
        13          A    I believe I do.
        14          Q    Do you anticipate testifying on all of these areas
        15      which you are listed for on page 18?
        16          A    I believe so.
        17          Q    Have you discussed your anticipated testimony with
        18      anyone outside of the legal counsel that you are being
        19      represented by?
        20               MR. HYDE:  I am not sure I understand that
        21          question.  Could you be more specific?
        22               MR. HETRICK:  I would like to know if he has
        23          discussed or prepared any thoughts or helped prepare
        24          himself for his anticipated testimony with any other
        25          experts in the case or received any consultation from



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                                                                        62

         1          anyone, outside the scope, obviously I don't want to
         2          breach any attorney-client privilege here.  That is
         3          kind of the gist of my question.
         4      BY MR. HETRICK:
         5          Q    Do you understand it?
         6          A    Yes, I do now.  The answer is no.  I discussed it
         7      primarily with counsel at Peeples, Earl and Blank.
         8          Q    Subject -- we are going to get into this more and
         9      more as we go throughout the day, but it says, "Subject
        10      Matter of Expected Testimony:  The Department of
        11      Environmental Regulation policies and procedures.  Other
        12      areas of testimony may be added as the issues in the case
        13      develop."
        14               Are you familiar with the issues in the case in
        15      general?
        16          A    In general, I am.
        17          Q    Have you completed formulating your opinions to
        18      this date based on the -- your general understanding of the
        19      issues in this case?
        20          A    Well, I am not sure I can say I have completed
        21      forming my opinions.  I have formed opinions based on the
        22      information that I have received and reviewed.  I assume I
        23      will be asked to continue to be involved in the development
        24      of the case and other issues may come up that I will be
        25      asked to review, but at this stage, I have reached some


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         1      conclusions.
         2               MR. HYDE:  I think just for purposes of the
         3          record, Mr. Armstrong is trying to say that he is ready
         4          to do his deposition today.  As the deposition and
         5          discovery process unfolds, there may be yet additional
         6          matters that are brought to his attention, just as that
         7          might be the case for any witness.
         8               MR. HETRICK:  Sure.
         9               MR. HYDE:  And certainly if the substance of his
        10          opinions change or if he develops new opinions, the
        11          Respondents, including the Department and the U.S.,
        12          will be notified of that fact and will be given an
        13          opportunity to recall Mr. Armstrong for a subsequent
        14          deposition, but he is ready to go today on what we
        15          anticipate his testimony to be.
        16               MR. HETRICK:  Okay.
        17               MR. HYDE:  Is that a fair statement?
        18               THE WITNESS:  That is fine.  You did a good job.
        19      BY MR. HETRICK:
        20          Q    Are you going to -- this is a rather broad
        21      description here, and as I said, we will get into it more
        22      and more, but the subject matter of expected testimony, DER
        23      policies and procedures, are there any particular policies
        24      and procedures that you will be focusing on in this case?
        25          A    In a general sense I expect to be focusing on the



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         1      development and implementation of the Department's water
         2      quality standards and permitting rules, and policies
         3      related to both of those.  That would include, for example,
         4      what are generally referred to as the mitigating provisions
         5      of the Department's permitting rules, the water body
         6      classification system, including the Department's
         7      Outstanding Florida Water Program.
         8          Q    With regard to the Outstanding Florida Water
         9      Program, will you be interpreting the grandfather provision
        10      of 17-4.242?
        11          A    I believe I will.
        12          Q    We have kind of gone through this before, but as
        13      far as your anticipated testimony, will you also be
        14      interpreting antidegradation rules?
        15          A    Perhaps, although I am not sure that would be a
        16      major part of my testimony.
        17          Q    You mentioned permitting.  Can you narrow that for
        18      me a bit?  Permitting is a fairly broad area.  Dredge and
        19      fill permitting, in what context?
        20          A    It is a fairly broad question, but let me try.
        21               I expect to field questions on the Department's
        22      permitting practices in the past, including the decision-
        23      making process as to when a permit might be required, what
        24      type of permit might be required, under what regulatory
        25      program within the Department that permitting process might



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         1      fall, and so forth.
         2          Q    Okay.
         3          A    Again, general permitting policies and practices
         4      based on the Department's rules in the past and the
         5      policies in the past.
         6          Q    Would you consider that kind of background type?
         7          A    In a sense I would, yes.
         8          Q    What about the narrative nutrient rule?
         9          A    The same, in a sense.  I was involved somewhat in
        10      the development of the Department's nutrient rule and
        11      application of the rule throughout my tenure with the
        12      Department.
        13          Q    How were you involved in the development of that
        14      rule?
        15          A    In a sense, I think when the rule was first
        16      developed I was on the user end.  I was involved in the
        17      wasteload allocation process, as I described earlier, and
        18      was involved in discussions over quite some period of time
        19      about the language that was being developed, the -- and the
        20      application of that language in the Department permitting
        21      and enforcement programs.
        22          Q    When did that occur?
        23          A    In general, I would say the mid- to late 1970s,
        24      but it continued on through my -- through my years with the
        25      Department.

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         1          Q    Do you expect to offer any testimony with regard
         2      to interpretations of the nuisance species rule?
         3          A    Yes.
         4          Q    How about the dissolved oxygen criterion?
         5          A    Yes.
         6          Q    Any other specific rules of this nature that you
         7      might be testifying to that jump to mind, recognizing that
         8      you have stated that you are open to all kinds of areas of
         9      water quality, but is there any other emphasis that comes
        10      to mind in the context of this case?
        11          A    Well, there could be issues that -- about which I
        12      will be asked dealing with site-specific alternative
        13      criteria, variances, and other mitigating provisions that I
        14      mentioned earlier.
        15          Q    Sure.
        16          A    Perhaps the Department's stormwater rule and
        17      implementation of that program; but again, in a general
        18      sense, I think those, the permitting policies and practices
        19      as it relates to those factors or sections of the rules.
        20               MR. HYDE:  Just to be complete, that is also the
        21          general subject matter of water quality-based effluent
        22          limitations, too.
        23      BY MR. HETRICK:
        24          Q    Let's generally talk about the Everglades.
        25               Are you familiar with the Everglades in general as


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         1      a body of water, with the Everglades Protection Area, in
         2      specific?
         3          A    I am familiar with the general layout, if you
         4      will, of the Everglades system, and I use that term in a
         5      broad sense to describe basically the southern quarter of
         6      the state.
         7          Q    Are you familiar with the water flow patterns in
         8      the Everglades?
         9          A    In general I am, yes.
        10          Q    Have you actually spent much time in the
        11      Everglades?
        12          A    I can describe it this way.  In a relative sense,
        13      I probably have spent more time in and on other water
        14      bodies of the state throughout my period with the
        15      Department than I did in the Everglades.
        16          Q    Have you ever done, in your professional or
        17      technical capacity, any field work in the Everglades,
        18      performed any site studies, conducted any --
        19               MR. HYDE:  Maybe one question at a time.
        20               THE WITNESS:  Let me see if I can describe it, and
        21          if this doesn't answer your question, you can focus in
        22          on maybe more specific -- specifically what you are
        23          getting at.
        24               I have been in the Everglades.  I have had broad
        25          tours of the Everglades, from the air and on the


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         1          ground, nothing specific, just the general layout of
         2          the Everglades.  I have been on the ground looking at
         3          specific issues dealing with the Everglades.  Again,
         4          when I was with the Department, I mentioned earlier we
         5          looked at some of the municipal discharges along the
         6          southern portion of the Lake Okeechobee and so forth.
         7               I have not personally conducted field studies or
         8          collected data or information such as that relating to
         9          specific problems in the Everglades.  I cannot recall
        10          any efforts to address a specific problem where I went
        11          in the field and collected information or took
        12          measurements and so forth.
        13      BY MR. HETRICK:
        14          Q    Have you ever reviewed any specific field studies
        15      or data with regard to specific problems in the
        16      Everglades?
        17          A    Yes.
        18          Q    When, what -- when?
        19          A    Well, again, primarily with the Department, I was
        20      briefed on a number of issues, on studies done by the
        21      Department or by the South Florida Water Management
        22      District, as I recall, and in the recent past I was asked
        23      to read documents, such as a study referred to as the
        24      Nearhoof study that was developed by Frank Nearhoof at DER,
        25      but again, that was reviewing information prepared and


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         1      documented by other people.
         2          Q    You mentioned that you were involved at one point
         3      when you were with the Department in evaluating or looking
         4      at municipal discharges into the Everglades?
         5          A    That is correct, in the general geographical sense
         6      of the Everglades.
         7          Q    General geographical view of the Everglades?
         8          A    Yes.
         9          Q    Could you tell me specifically what studies those
        10      involved?
        11          A    All of those, I believe, would be documented in
        12      the Department's water quality technical series.  I
        13      mentioned earlier that studies that were done by the
        14      Wasteload Allocation Section, I will not say they were all
        15      written and published as separate documents, but they
        16      should be in the files of the Department's Water Quality
        17      Analysis Section, Point Source Evaluation Section, or I am
        18      not sure what it is called now, but --
        19          Q    Were these studies done all approximately at
        20      the -- in a similar time period?
        21          A    No.  I think the studies continued on for a number
        22      of years, through my involvement at least through the --
        23      well, I am not sure now, it probably was the late '70s,
        24      early '80s period that I was involved.  It may have
        25      continued.  I don't know at this point.



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         1          Q    What were the nature of the studies that were
         2      going on as far as municipal discharges into the Everglades
         3      was concerned?
         4          A    I think the primary issue was whether or not those
         5      facilities that discharged to surface waters should
         6      continue to do so, and if not, where were they going to
         7      discharge and what level of treatment would they have to
         8      provide.  The Department was in certainly a regulatory role
         9      in that process, but also the Department was trying to
        10      assist those cities in obtaining grant funding wherever
        11      possible to implement whatever alternatives were identified
        12      as acceptable in a regulatory sense.
        13          Q    Were conclusions reached in those studies?
        14          A    Yes.  I think for the most part the majority -- I
        15      will not say the majority, many of those municipalities
        16      implemented new treatment and disposal alternatives, such
        17      as deep well injection.  I don't know the current status of
        18      those discharges.  I was involved in the early planning
        19      process where they were analyzing alternatives and seeking
        20      funding, and I can't say what has happened in the last few
        21      years.
        22          Q    Are you familiar with the adopted Everglades SWIM
        23      Plan?
        24          A    Not really.
        25          Q    Have you reviewed the adopted Everglades SWIM Plan


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         1      at all?
         2          A    I have not.
         3          Q    Did you work on SWIM issues when you were with the
         4      Department?
         5          A    Yes, I did.
         6          Q    Did you examine or review any drafts of SWIM
         7      Plans, Everglades SWIM Plans prior to the adopted version?
         8          A    Yes, I did.
         9          Q    When did you first have contact with the
        10      Everglades SWIM Plan when you were with the Department?
        11          A    I would put it in about the late 1989, early 1990
        12      period, roughly.
        13          Q    What was your role in that process?
        14          A    Initially, which was that, let's say, 1989 period,
        15      our office, our staff in Tallahassee was primarily involved
        16      in, shall we say, getting the SWIM process up and running.
        17      We were involved in developing rules for the implementation
        18      of the SWIM legislation.  We were involved in getting the
        19      money that had been allocated to the water management
        20      districts.  We were involved in educating the district
        21      staff and the governing boards about SWIM and about the
        22      policies that we wanted to implement in gearing that
        23      program up.
        24               Initially I think we focused primarily on the
        25      process, how did the money come through the Department to

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         1      the water management districts, what criteria would we use
         2      for allocating the funds and approving their studies, and
         3      so forth.
         4               Later in the 1989 period and beginning in 1990, we
         5      were starting to get work products back from the water
         6      management districts, from all of them, again, I am
         7      speaking statewide at this point, and we were reviewing
         8      those documents, again, as managers of the program,
         9      basically, to be sure the money was being spent properly,
        10      but also we were establishing policy as we went.
        11               We were discussing with the districts and
        12      internally which activities were appropriate, given the
        13      SWIM legislation, where were the districts going in terms
        14      of the directives that SWIM had given them; but as I said,
        15      we began shifting more and more into the technical work,
        16      issues, for example, such as were the districts spreading
        17      their resources too thin to accomplish anything, broad
        18      issues, but for the most part I think I characterize our
        19      involvement as more of a hands-off approach on the
        20      technical issues.
        21               It was the policy of the Department and the
        22      Secretary at that time to really let the water management
        23      districts and their governing boards decide what issues
        24      were important and how to address those issues.  We saw our
        25      role as being sure they were working on the things that



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         1      they identified as high priorities and spending money
         2      wisely and doing things in a manner consistent with the
         3      statutes and the State's water policy, but we did not take
         4      a direct involvement in day-to-day projects, in what I call
         5      the nuts and bolts of their studies.
         6          Q    You mentioned part of your initial involvement
         7      included development of specific rules in regards to the
         8      SWIM planning process.
         9          A    That is correct.
        10          Q    What specific rules?
        11          A    The rules that we developed, and I may not be able
        12      to give you a reference, it escapes me at the moment, but
        13      the rules that we developed governed how the districts
        14      would implement the SWIM legislation and how we would get
        15      the money down to them.
        16               For example, they addressed the prioritization
        17      process, where the districts were to identify priority
        18      water bodies and provide certain reports to the Department
        19      and request reimbursement for the work that they were
        20      doing.  It was more of the implementation of the program
        21      rather than --
        22          Q    Substantive?
        23          A    -- substantive standards for review and so forth.
        24          Q    You mentioned that you started, in late '89 and
        25      '90 you started getting products back from the various

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         1      water management districts around the state.
         2               Did your staff or you review those, begin
         3      reviewing those products?
         4          A    Yes.
         5          Q    What did those reviews entail?  And let me be more
         6      specific, let's talk about specifically the Everglades SWIM
         7      Plan.
         8          A    Okay.  We began, "we" meaning on my staff,
         9      primarily the Coastal Zone Management Section, who at that
        10      time was responsible for the Department's administration of
        11      the SWIM responsibilities, we had various staff members
        12      assigned to various water management districts around the
        13      state.
        14               The staff, as you might imagine, or staff level
        15      people conducted more detailed reviews of the information
        16      that was being received from the water management
        17      districts, and they would bring to my attention, and other
        18      managers in the division, specific issues, primarily policy
        19      matters that were of concern and they weren't quite sure
        20      how to handle them or issues that might be raised by the
        21      water management district when they would need some
        22      guidance on how to carry out their responsibilities.
        23               Specifically with regard to the Everglades, the
        24      South Florida Water Management District was submitting
        25      information and carrying on discussions with our staff, and



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         1      our staff would actually go down to the water management
         2      district to participate in staff level meetings and in some
         3      cases sit in on governing board meetings where the
         4      prioritization process and the technical approach to
         5      development of the Everglades SWIM Plan was being
         6      discussed.
         7          Q    What kinds of issues arose during late '89 in the
         8      context of your review of the Everglades SWIM Plan?
         9          A    The primary areas of focus were on the progress of
        10      their SWIM Plan development effort, on the review
        11      procedures between the Department and the water management
        12      district and on the scope of the SWIM planning effort as it
        13      related to the Everglades.
        14          Q    How did you -- what was the focus on the scope of
        15      the effort?  What do you mean, "the scope of the effort"?
        16          A    There were a number of issues.  As examples, the
        17      water management district's SWIM planning effort for the
        18      Everglades could have actually encompassed geographically
        19      an area from Orlando to Key West.  The whole southern part
        20      of the state being somewhat hydrologically connected, the
        21      District had to decide how to break that area up into
        22      planning units.  That is obviously one very broad policy
        23      matter that had to be dealt with.
        24               They also had to decide from a technical
        25      perspective on which areas to focus on, and they began to



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         1      direct their area of focus primarily to nutrients and
         2      specifically to phosphorus as it related to the
         3      Everglades.  We discussed that issue.
         4               They had a number of other technical issues that
         5      they were dealing with that we discussed.  For example,
         6      there was the issue of exotic vegetation control and
         7      perhaps removal within the Everglades, and as a district
         8      and under the direction of their governing board, they were
         9      trying to decide how to allocate their resources to deal
        10      with those problems.  They were trying to decide how much
        11      of their own resources to put into the process, to combine
        12      them with the resources being provided by the State.
        13               So those were the general broad issues dealing
        14      with the scope of the plan that we were wrestling with at
        15      that time.
        16          Q    You mentioned that they were trying to decide
        17      which areas to focus on.  You mentioned nutrients and
        18      phosphorus and exotic vegetation control.  Were there any
        19      other areas that they specifically decided to focus on
        20      besides those, that you recall?
        21          A    Well --
        22          Q    That would be considered technical?
        23          A    Yes.  I think they intended to look at all of the
        24      Department's water quality standards, and this is my
        25      recollection or my understanding, they intended to look at



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         1      all of the Department's water quality standards within the
         2      Everglades and their other planning areas.  Although they
         3      may decide in their prioritiza