1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 88-1886-CIV (Hoeveler) 3 4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) 5 Plaintiff, ) v. ) 6 ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) 7 DISTRICT, et al., ) Defendants. ) 8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 9 1601 Belvedere Road West Palm Beach, Florida 10 December 12, 1990 9:50 A.M. 11 12 13 14 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT RATCLIFFE 15 16 17 18 Taken before MAXYNE BURSKY, 19 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public, 20 pursuant to Notice issued in the above cause. 21 - - - - - - - 22 23 24 25 JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF: 4 DEXTER LEHTINEN, ESQ. United States Attorney for the Southern 5 District of Florida 155 South Miami Avenue 6 Suite 600 Miami, Florida 33130 7 BY: MAUREEN DONLAN, Assistant United States Attorney 8 9 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT South Florida Water Management District: 10 STANLEY J. NIEGO, ESQ. 11 Box 24680 3301 Gun Club Road 12 West Palm Beach, Florida 33416 BY: TONI LAFUENTE, ESQ. 13 -And- JACKIE WATERS, ESQ. 14 South Florida Water Management District 15 16 17 INDEX Witness Direct Cross 18 ROBERT RATCLIFFE 19 By Ms. Donlan: 3 -- 20 21 EXHIBITS NUMBER PAGE 22 RR1 18 RR2 72 23 RR3 81 24 25 JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 3 1 R O B E R T R A T C L I F F E, 2 called as a witness, having been 3 duly sworn, testified as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MS. DONLAN: 6 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, my name is Maureen Donlan. 7 I'm here today on behalf of the United States. 8 I don't know if you are familiar with the 9 deposition process. Basically what it is, I ask you 10 various questions, you respond to the best of your 11 ability. If there is anything that I ask you that you 12 don't understand, please let me know and I'll be glad 13 to rephrase it. 14 Please state your full name for the record. 15 A. Robert Francis Ratcliffe, Jr. 16 Q. What is your residential address? 17 A. 533 Springdale Circle. 18 Q. Springdale, is that one word? 19 A. Yes. Palm Springs, Florida, 33461. 20 Q. What is your business address? 21 A. 3301 Gun Club Road. 22 Q. Who are you employed by? 23 A. South Florida Water Management District. 24 Q. What is your position at the South Florida 25 Water Management District? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 4 1 A. Regulatory field representative. 2 Q. Would you briefly describe for me what your 3 responsibilities are as a regulatory field 4 representative? 5 A. I inspect and investigate the construction 6 projects that we permit to our permitting process in 7 the Regulation Department, answer complaints, work on 8 enforcements, make aerial inspections of construction 9 projects or applications and enforcements, make 10 special investigations for either my boss or someone 11 in Regulation or the executive office. 12 Q. Is there a particular area, geographical 13 area that you are responsible for? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What is that area? 16 A. From Boca Raton to a little north of PGA 17 Boulevard. If you want to get more specific it would 18 be Township 42 through 47 in Palm Beach County. 19 Q. The PGA Boulevard that you refer to, is 20 that PGA Boulevard -- you are going to have to answer 21 because the court reporter can't take down when you 22 just nod. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where is that PGA Boulevard located? 25 A. Seven or eight miles from here in the north JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 5 1 end of the county. 2 Q. Are there certain eastern and western 3 boundaries of the area that you are responsible for? 4 A. Technically from the coast all the way to 5 the county line. 6 Q. And again you are talking about the Palm 7 Beach County line? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How long have you been a regulatory field 10 representative? 11 A. Since October of 1985. 12 Q. What position did you hold prior to that 13 time? 14 A. I was a hydrologic data technician in data 15 management with the District. 16 Q. For what period of time did you hold that 17 position? 18 A. From August of 1981 to October 1985. 19 Q. What were the nature of your 20 responsibilities as a hydrological data technician? 21 A. Tabulated rainfall charts and stage charts, 22 also data collection of those charts either by truck 23 or from the helicopter and stream gauging. 24 Q. What is stream gauging? 25 A. Basically taking flow measurements, how JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 6 1 much flow is going through a stream or canal. 2 Q. What position did you hold prior to that? 3 A. Field worker at the field station. 4 Q. What were your responsibilities as a field 5 worker? 6 A. All kinds of things, mowing levies, driving 7 dump trucks, whatever. 8 Q. What field station was that? 9 A. West Palm Beach field station. 10 Q. For what period of time did you work as a 11 field worker? 12 A. April 1981 to August 1981. 13 Q. Prior to that time, what was your position 14 with the District? 15 A. There was none. I wasn't employed by the 16 District. 17 Q. You joined the District in April of 1981? 18 A. April of 1981. 19 Q. Where were you employed prior to joining 20 the District? 21 A. I was a meteorological aide with the 22 National Weather Service at the airport. 23 Q. How long did you work for the National 24 Weather Service? 25 A. Technically it wasn't for the weather JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 7 1 service, it was under the old CETA program for the 2 Federal government. It was February of 1980 to March 3 1981 -- I mean, April of 1981. 4 (Mr. Wyckoff enters the room) 5 MR. WYCKOFF: If I can interrupt for just a 6 second, my name is Doug Wyckoff, I represent the 7 Cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston. Currently I am 8 on 30(b)(6) depositions which started on December 3 9 and are continuing through this week and possibly next 10 week. 11 In addition, we have attorneys in 12 Tallahassee at the document production. We have an 13 attorney here at the deposition of Leslie Wedderburn. 14 We have another attorney in Homestead at the Soukup 15 deposition. 16 The Cities are unable to participate in 17 this deposition due to the unreasonable and unfair 18 discovery practices of the United States which have 19 apparently been acquiesced in by the District. 20 We object to this deposition. We further 21 note for the record that the notice of this deposition 22 has not complied with local Rule 10(i)8. 23 Thank you. 24 (Mr. Wyckoff leaves the room) 25 MS. DONLAN: Let's just put on the record JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 8 1 also it is my understanding that the attorneys for the 2 Cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston have represented 3 to the United States that they would not be objecting 4 to the taking of this deposition. That was the reason 5 for this deposition proceeding. 6 MS. LAFUENTE: And for the record, we note 7 Mr. Doug Wyckoff's objection but we are not going to 8 say that we will reproduce Mr. Ratcliffe for the 9 reasons he stated. 10 BY MS. DONLAN: 11 Q. We were discussing your prior position. 12 You said you were acting as a meteorological aide? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you were explaining to me exactly who 15 you were working for. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Could you continue, please. Who were you 18 working for when you were working as a meteorological 19 aide? 20 A. The Federal government. 21 Q. Was there a particular branch of the 22 Federal government? 23 A. Like I said, it was under the CETA program. 24 Q. Prior to your working as a meteorological 25 aide, what position did you hold? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 9 1 A. Basically construction work. 2 Q. Did you work for any particular company? 3 A. I think it was JF Construction. 4 Q. Is that here in West Palm Beach? 5 A. It was. 6 Q. Is it still in existence? 7 A. Not as far as I know. 8 Q. For what time period did you work for JF 9 Construction? 10 A. On and off from about May of 1979 to 11 December of 1979. 12 Q. When you say you worked on and off, is that 13 because that goes with the nature of the work, it is 14 just an irregular type of work? 15 A. And then I took a couple of months off and 16 went back to New York where I'm from. 17 Q. Where were you working prior to May of 18 1979? 19 A. Lake Worth Auto Supply. 20 Q. What type of work were you doing there? 21 A. Delivering parts. 22 Q. How long a period of time did you work at 23 Lake Worth Auto Supply? 24 A. About two months. 25 Q. Prior to that time, where did you work? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 10 1 A. J.C. Penney. 2 Q. What did you do at J.C. Penney? 3 A. Stock work. 4 Q. How long a period of time did you work 5 there? 6 A. November of 1978 to, I guess it would be 7 March or April of 1979. 8 Q. Where did you work prior to J.C. Penney? 9 A. New York. 10 Q. What were you doing in New York, what type 11 of work? 12 A. A little difficult to explain. The name of 13 the company was Curious Research. It basically dealt 14 with vertical gardens made of fiberglass. 15 Q. What kind of work did you do for them? 16 A. Helped make the fiberglass, set up the 17 gardens, planted. 18 Q. What period of time did you work for 19 Curious Research? 20 A. May of 1978 to September of 1978. 21 Q. Prior to that time, where did you work? 22 A. Full-time student. 23 Q. Where were you a full-time student? 24 A. State University of New York at Brockport. 25 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, on the notice of taking JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 11 1 deposition duces tecum, one of the items you were 2 requested to bring with you was a copy of your resume. 3 Have you brought that with you or do you have such a 4 copy? 5 A. I have a confidential resume I did not 6 bring. 7 Q. Why do you refer to it as a confidential 8 resume? 9 A. It's usually, a confidential resume is a 10 resume that I guess you don't want your employers to 11 know about or you use when looking for outside work. 12 Q. Is there some particular reason why it was 13 not brought today? 14 MS. LAFUENTE: Mr. Ratcliffe's resume is 15 not a resume that he used for his employment with the 16 District. He has a resume that he used when he first 17 became employed with the District that's about ten 18 years old that he hasn't updated. 19 From my understanding the resume he is 20 talking about is something that he uses for other 21 types of work that would not be related to this. 22 Q. Do you have a resume that's a current 23 resume or within the last five years? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Does it relate, does it list, for example, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 12 1 the District employment that you have? 2 A. Yes. 3 MS. DONLAN: I think it should have been 4 produced today. 5 MS. LAFUENTE: It was my understanding that 6 it wasn't related to the work that he is doing at the 7 District and we will provide that when we go back at 8 lunchtime. 9 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, did you get your degree at 10 the State University of New York? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. That was a four-year degree? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was your major? 15 A. Earth science. 16 Q. What other types of courses did you take at 17 the state university? 18 A. Geology courses, meteorological courses, 19 geography; those are the main courses for earth 20 science. 21 Q. Have you taken any other kind of courses 22 since you graduated? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What courses are those? 25 A. I've taken a private pilot course. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 13 1 Q. To get your pilot's license? 2 A. The course was at junior college for the 3 exam. 4 Q. Do you have your pilot's license? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Have you taken any other kinds of courses? 7 A. I've taken a couple of continuing ed 8 courses. 9 Q. In what areas? 10 A. Political science, current events type 11 thing. 12 Q. Have you taken any courses that have been 13 sponsored by the District or would be of assistance to 14 you in your current position? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What type of courses are those? 17 A. I took a Florida hydric soils course, a 18 one-day seminar in Gainesville. 19 Q. What is Florida hydric soils? 20 A. Basically soils that are wetlands, 21 wetland-related. 22 Q. Are there any other courses that you can 23 think of? 24 A. Taken some, how to deal with the media 25 course, how to deal with angry people, a writing JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 14 1 course and maybe a few others I just don't recall 2 right now. 3 Q. The one-day seminar that you attended on 4 hydric soils, is that something that was sponsored by 5 the District? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you recall who was sponsoring that 8 particular course? 9 A. Some state organization. 10 Q. Can you think of any other courses that you 11 have attended or seminars? 12 A. With the District? 13 Q. Or in general since you graduated from 14 college. 15 A. There may have been one or two others but I 16 can't recall right now. 17 Q. Did you attend any other colleges besides 18 the State University of New York? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Which colleges are those? 21 A. A semester at FAU, Florida Atlantic 22 University and a summer session at Community College 23 of the Finger Lakes. 24 Q. When did you attend the one semester at 25 FAU? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 15 1 A. The fall of 1976. 2 Q. What was your purpose in attending that one 3 semester? 4 A. At the time I came down on spring break and 5 I liked it and I just wanted to try going to school 6 here. 7 Q. What made you decide to leave FAU? 8 A. They weren't really offering the courses 9 that I wanted so I went back. 10 Q. When again did you graduate from the state 11 university? 12 A. May of 1978. 13 Q. And you also mentioned the community 14 college at Finger Lakes? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where is that? 17 A. Canandagua, New York. 18 Q. What did you study during that summer 19 session? 20 A. I took a math course and photography 21 course. 22 Q. When did you attend the community college? 23 A. Summer of 1976. 24 Q. Are there any other universities that you 25 attended? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 16 1 A. That one course that I took at Palm Beach 2 Junior College. 3 Q. What course was that? 4 A. That was the private pilot course and then 5 the continuing ed courses I have taken from Palm 6 Beach. 7 Q. And the continuing ed courses were the ones 8 dealing with political science? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Going back to your responsibilities now as 11 a regulatory field representative, you said something 12 to the effect that you inspect and investigate 13 permits. Can you explain for me a little more exactly 14 what your role is and what you normally do in that 15 type of situation? 16 A. Our Regulation Department issues the 17 permits and I inspect the project to make sure the 18 construction in completion complies with the special 19 conditions of our permit. 20 Q. Is that the first time that you are 21 involved, once the construction is completed? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What is the first point at which you would 24 become involved in this permitting process? 25 A. When an application is made to the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 17 1 District, we make an initial inspection and then once 2 a month we inspect it until it is permitted. 3 Q. Maybe the easiest way to approach it is to 4 start from the very beginning. The District receives 5 an application for a permit. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What happens to that application or what is 8 the first step that you take in regard to that 9 application? 10 A. I don't take any steps to it. If it is a 11 Surface Water Management application, our Surface 12 Water staff reviews it. They send us a location map 13 and some extra plans and we make an initial inspection 14 on it. 15 Q. Do you know who in the Surface Water 16 Management Group would review the application? 17 A. Could be one of any number of people. 18 There are many reviewers over there. 19 Q. Do you know of anyone in particular that 20 you can recall? 21 A. Ed Yaun, the supervisor, Jenny Hiscock is a 22 supervisor, Kevin Dickson is a supervisor. They, I 23 assume, delegate to the people below them. 24 Q. So that group would review the permit 25 application and then they would forward to you a JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 18 1 location map and plans. 2 A. The applicant is supposed to send in six 3 sets of everything and the field representative is 4 supposed to get a set. 5 Q. When you talk about a location map, what do 6 you mean by that? 7 A. Where it is, where it is in the county, 8 where it is in the District. 9 Q. And the plans, what would that refer to? 10 A. The actual site plans, construction plans. 11 Q. You then take that information and you go 12 out and make your initial inspection, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How is your initial inspection normally 15 done? 16 A. Normally it's done on our aerial 17 inspection. 18 Q. When you say an aerial inspection, you are 19 referring by helicopter? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Who besides yourself would normally go out 22 on the initial inspection? 23 A. Usually I am accompanied by my supervisor, 24 Eric Botka. 25 Q. When you make the initial inspection, what JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 19 1 are you looking for? 2 A. Looking to see, make sure they haven't 3 started work already, see if there is wetlands on 4 site, see if there might be any known or historical 5 drainage problems in relation or related to the site 6 that we could pass on to the reviewer. 7 Q. If there were wetlands on the site, what 8 would you do then? 9 A. Normally you can tell that there's wetlands 10 on the site because they are supposed to submit an 11 aerial, so the reviewer already knows, plus our 12 reviewer in our Natural Resource Management Section 13 also gets a copy. 14 Q. Basically what you are doing, you are going 15 out there to prepare some sort of a report for the 16 reviewer? 17 A. I only get back to the reviewer if there's 18 a problem. 19 Q. Do you normally prepare some sort of a 20 report on your initial inspection? 21 A. Yes, we have a computer printout and we'll 22 indicate whether there is any activity yes or no and 23 then turn that over to our enforcement section. 24 Q. If you were to see that there were wetlands 25 on the site, would you make a notation of that on your JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 20 1 report? 2 A. Basically, it's not so much that there's 3 wetlands, it's just to make sure that there's no work 4 going on in the wetlands, that they are not being 5 destroyed. 6 Q. Are you also looking to make sure that the 7 permit application is not seeking to do some sort of 8 construction on the wetlands? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If you see that the wetlands are not 11 involved in the construction process and no activity 12 is occurring on the wetlands, does that mean that you 13 then don't make any notation at all concerning 14 wetlands? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. But if you saw that there was activity 17 going on concerning the wetlands, what would you do 18 then? 19 A. If they were destroying the wetlands in any 20 way, we would make up an inspection report. 21 Q. So the inspection report is only prepared 22 if you see there is a problem? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Is anyone else involved in preparing the 25 inspection report? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 21 1 A. My supervisor, Eric Botka. 2 Q. What is Mr. Botka's role when he goes out 3 for the initial inspection? 4 A. Well, generally we conduct the aerial 5 inspections, you know, together at the same time, so 6 it is just another pair of eyes, really. 7 Q. You said he would also be involved in 8 preparing the actual inspection report? 9 A. He would add additional comments to my 10 report. 11 Q. Is there anyone else who would be involved 12 in preparing that inspection report? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Would the inspection report normally be 15 handwritten comments that you would write as you are 16 doing the initial inspection? 17 A. I would come back to the office, write up a 18 report, handwritten usually. Eric would make his 19 comments. 20 Q. And then where would the inspection report 21 go? 22 A. It would go to Eric's supervisor and 23 primarily to our Enforcement Section. 24 Q. Who is Eric's supervisor? 25 A. Ed Maciejko. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 22 1 Q. Can you spell that last name? 2 A. M A C I E J K O. 3 Q. What is Mr. Maciejko's position? 4 A. Supervising professional. 5 Q. What division is he in at the District? 6 A. Field Engineering. 7 Q. Do you know what Mr. Maciejko does with the 8 inspection report once he receives it? 9 A. He reviews it and he may or may not make 10 any comments on it or suggestions. 11 Q. What does he do with it then? 12 A. Again, primarily it goes to our Enforcement 13 Section. They handle it. 14 Q. When you refer to the Enforcement Section, 15 which division at the District are you referring to? 16 A. Field Engineering. 17 Q. Do you know who in particular would receive 18 that inspection report at the Field Engineering 19 Division? 20 A. Either Rudy Smith or Don Loving. 21 Q. Do you know what their titles are? 22 A. Rudy is a supervising professional. I'm 23 not sure exactly Don's, I think it is Regulatory 24 Professional III. 25 Q. Do you know what supervising professional, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 23 1 what that means or what type of responsibilities they 2 have? 3 A. He's responsible for Don, of course, and 4 their enforcement field rep. He makes the final 5 decisions on the enforcements. 6 Q. You are referring to Rudy Smith? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When you say he makes the final decisions 9 on enforcements, what do you mean by that? 10 A. That may be too broad a statement. He's 11 the chief of enforcement for the District, but of 12 course, everything is, it's him, our division 13 director, the department division director and legal 14 staff. 15 Q. Who is your division director? 16 A. Arlan Pankow, P A N K O W. 17 Q. So Rudy Smith would forward on the 18 inspection report to Arlan Pankow? 19 A. It would be more of a combined coordination 20 effort. 21 Q. Do you have any idea whether they get 22 together on some regular basis to discuss these 23 inspection reports or how that process works? 24 A. I believe they get together on a regular 25 basis, but I am more or less out of that loop. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 24 1 Q. Do you have anything at all to do with the 2 enforcement part of the process? 3 A. The initial discovery and inspection report 4 and continuing inspection. 5 Q. Are you ever contacted by anyone at the 6 District to discuss your inspection report? 7 A. Sometimes Don or Rudy or possibly one of 8 our environmental staff. 9 Q. Do they ever ask for your opinion as to 10 what action should be taken? 11 A. Yes, I guess you could say so. 12 Q. Do you recall the last time that you were 13 asked for your advice about any particular report that 14 you prepared? 15 A. An enforcement report? 16 Q. Yes, the initial inspection report. 17 A. Well, initial and enforcement is two 18 different things. 19 Q. Explain the difference to me. 20 A. Again, it is enforcement if they are 21 breaking our rules and regulations. 22 Q. How are you involved with the enforcement 23 report? 24 A. I initiate it and I'm the one who makes the 25 initial report. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 25 1 Q. Under what circumstances do you make an 2 enforcement report? 3 A. Again, if they are breaking our rules and 4 regulations. 5 Q. How do you learn that a particular project 6 is breaking your rules and regulations? 7 A. You need a permit to work, to conduct work 8 on the site or you can't, like I said, you can't 9 destroy wetlands. 10 Q. You are talking about situations where a 11 particular project has not obtained a permit? 12 A. I don't understand. 13 Q. You are talking about breaking of certain 14 rules and regulations. Is that because the permit has 15 not been obtained or there have been violations of the 16 permit? 17 A. It hasn't been obtained. 18 Q. How do you learn that a permit has not been 19 obtained? 20 A. We do some investigation. We check our 21 quad sheets. 22 Q. How does it first come to your attention 23 that there may be some problem, that maybe a permit 24 has not been applied for or that a permit needs to be 25 applied for? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 26 1 A. Either I will find it or sometimes somebody 2 will give us a call, a concerned citizen or another 3 government agency. 4 Q. How would you find out? 5 A. Well, my job is to be in the field and I 6 travel a lot and I see things. I'm paid to keep my 7 eyes open. 8 Q. So during your normal inspections you may 9 come across a project that may lead you to think, I 10 better check and see if they do have a permit? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. If you do check and you find out that a 13 particular project does not have a permit and in your 14 opinion they should have a permit, what do you do? 15 A. Make an inspection report. 16 Q. Which you also refer to as an enforcement 17 report or is that different? 18 A. It's different. 19 Q. You make an inspection report and then what 20 do you do? 21 A. Again, I submit it to my supervisor. He 22 would make his comments. 23 Q. And then it would go over to the 24 Enforcement Group? 25 A. If it was an enforcement. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 27 1 Q. If it was a situation where a permit should 2 have been applied for, in your opinion should have 3 been applied for, would it then be an enforcement 4 problem? 5 A. Sometimes, but not necessarily. 6 Q. In what situations would it be an 7 enforcement problem? 8 A. If they were digging in wetlands, if they 9 were doing major earth work. 10 Q. What type of situations would it not be an 11 enforcement problem? 12 A. If it was a little half acre 7 Eleven or 13 service station. 14 Q. Why would that not be an enforcement 15 problem? 16 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form. 17 Go ahead, answer it. 18 A. Generally those type of projects are in the 19 urban city areas and there's all development around 20 them any ways, so almost all the time there would be 21 no wetlands or any other type of problems with it. 22 Q. But in that type of situation, would you 23 still, if you had seen a 7 Eleven or a service 24 station, would that have caused you to fill out some 25 sort of an inspection report? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 28 1 A. No. 2 Q. So if you had prepared an inspection 3 report, would it then necessarily be an enforcement 4 type of problem? 5 A. For that, no. 6 Q. When are those situations where you would 7 fill out an inspection report where it would not go to 8 the Enforcement Group? 9 A. Any type of inspection report? 10 Q. Just to give me an example, because I don't 11 understand basically what you are saying. 12 A. Just a typical, could be a deficiency in 13 that permitted project. 14 Q. Why would that not be an enforcement 15 problem? 16 A. A deficiency? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. That's the way it's set up. 19 Q. Do you see the problem that I am having? 20 You are telling me that you prepare these inspection 21 reports and normally they go to the Enforcement Group. 22 You just said that doesn't always occur. I am trying 23 to understand when it would go to the Enforcement 24 Group and in what situations it wouldn't go to the 25 Enforcement Group. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 29 1 A. Common sense. 2 Q. I guess I am lacking in that because I 3 don't understand it. Can you explain a little more to 4 me what type of situations that would go? 5 A. If you have a hundred-acre site that they 6 are digging around in the wetlands, that's 7 enforcement. If you have some guy with a half acre 7 8 Eleven going in, no wetlands on the site, no 9 historical drainage problems, that's not enforcement. 10 Q. Why would you prepare an inspection report? 11 What is the purpose of preparing the inspection report 12 if it is not ultimately to go for enforcement 13 purposes? 14 A. It could be any number of things. It could 15 be a complaint, it could be a deficiency, it could be 16 a special inspection, it could be a final inspection; 17 numerous things. 18 Q. So if the initial reason for your making 19 the inspection was that you had received a complaint 20 from a third party, you would then automatically 21 prepare an inspection report? 22 A. Would you repeat that? 23 Q. If the reason that you had gone out to do 24 the initial inspection or to do an inspection was 25 because you had received a complaint from a third JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 30 1 party, would you then automatically do an inspection 2 report? 3 A. If it was a valid complaint. 4 Q. You also referred to the enforcement 5 report. Who prepares the enforcement report? 6 A. Rudy Smith and Don Loving. 7 Q. Do they prepare that report after reviewing 8 your inspection report? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Have you ever seen any of these enforcement 11 reports? 12 A. It's hard to say if it's exactly a report. 13 Most of the reports are generated from myself or Eric 14 or one of the field representatives. I guess you can 15 say the actual enforcement reports are based on our 16 reports. Maybe they are not technically called 17 reports, expanding the continuing investigation of the 18 enforcement. 19 Q. So basically the enforcement reports are 20 giving further directions as to what further action 21 needs to be taken? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 Q. Who are they normally directed toward? 24 A. Again, it's a coordination between our 25 enforcement, legal, mainly enforcement and legal with, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 31 1 of course, input from our division director. 2 Q. Do the enforcement reports ever direct you 3 to take some further action? 4 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form. 5 A. Any time that Don or Rudy, they may come 6 across some information, like I said, I'm usually out 7 of the loop. If something comes up and they want me 8 to make an inspection to let them know what the 9 current status is, I'll make another inspection. 10 Q. Are there any other personnel in the 11 Enforcement Group that are dealing with these 12 enforcement reports? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you name them for me? 15 A. Al Harkabus. 16 Q. Can you spell that last name? 17 A. H A R K A B U S. 18 Q. What is his position? 19 A. Enforcement field representative. 20 Q. As enforcement field representative, do you 21 have any idea what his responsibilities are? 22 A. Some of them. 23 Q. Could you describe those for me? 24 A. He works on the computer, prepares maps, 25 probably assists in the writing of some of the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 32 1 enforcement reports. He also makes some aerial 2 inspections. 3 Q. Under what circumstances does he make 4 aerial inspections? 5 A. I'm not sure exactly how they are working 6 it over there now. He flies once or twice a month, 7 either the whole District or half of it. 8 Q. What is he looking for when he makes his 9 aerial inspections? 10 A. Any type of illegal activity. 11 Q. How are his aerial inspections different 12 from the kind that you conduct? 13 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form. 14 A. Most of my inspections are construction 15 inspections with some, what we call monthly 16 inspections. 17 Q. What type of inspections does he do? 18 A. He would do, I assume, special inspections. 19 Q. What do you mean by special inspections? 20 A. He sometimes helps out our remote offices 21 with the aerials and if there is a big project that 22 may be out in the middle of nowhere and he is the one 23 who saw it, then we might ask him to follow up. 24 Q. Do you know if he normally prepares 25 reports, inspection reports after he does these aerial JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 33 1 inspections? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Are there any other individuals in the 4 Enforcement Group that are involved with the 5 preparation of these enforcement reports? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Are there any other personnel of the 8 District in any other division that are involved with 9 either the initial inspection reports or these 10 enforcement reports? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who would that be? 13 A. Our environmental staff. 14 Q. Are there any particular persons on the 15 environmental staff that deal with these particular 16 inspection reports or enforcement reports? 17 A. They all do. It just depends on the 18 geographical area. 19 Q. And the geographical area that you cover, 20 who are the people on the environmental staff that are 21 involved? 22 A. It would be Debbie Goss, Lisa Childs, Anita 23 Carey. 24 Q. What are their positions? 25 A. I don't know the exact title, some type of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 34 1 environmentalist. 2 Q. Do you have some idea of the type of duties 3 that they have? 4 A. Some. 5 Q. Could you explain them to me? 6 MS. LAFUENTE: If you don't know, you don't 7 need to speculate on it. 8 A. They make site inspections initially 9 usually with a consultant or sometimes on their own to 10 verify whether there's wetlands or any potential 11 environmental impacts. 12 Q. The site inspections that they do, the 13 environmental staff, are those done subsequent to the 14 initial inspection done by you? 15 A. Sometimes. 16 Q. Are there certain situations where their 17 site inspections would be done before your initial 18 inspection was done? 19 A. I would say a lot of times they are done 20 before mine are done. 21 Q. How do they normally decide when a site 22 inspection should be done, the environmental staff? 23 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form. 24 A. They get a copy just like I do or they are 25 contacted ahead of time by the consultant. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 35 1 Q. They get a copy of what? 2 A. The application or sometimes they will do a 3 preapplication meeting. 4 Q. What is a preapplication meeting? 5 A. Sometimes an owner or developer will meet 6 with our environmental staff to go over a site 7 inspection on his property to see what, sometimes what 8 he can and can't do with the site. 9 Q. The site inspection that the environmental 10 staff does, is that the same type of site inspection 11 that you do? 12 A. No, theirs is a lot more detailed 13 concerning wetlands. 14 Q. Do you know exactly what they are looking 15 for when they do their site inspections? 16 A. Some of the things. 17 Q. What are some of the things? 18 A. Flora, fauna, hydric soils. 19 Q. Are the personnel on the environmental 20 staff broken up into handling different geographical 21 areas? 22 A. As far as I know, yes. 23 Q. Do you know which particular area Ms. Goss 24 covers? 25 A. Not exactly. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 36 1 Q. Do you know which particular area any of 2 the personnel that you mentioned cover? 3 A. All of them cover at least a portion of my 4 area in the past, Palm Beach County. 5 Q. Do you know who is covering that area now? 6 A. As far as I know, Lisa and Anita, but they 7 switch things around a lot over there. 8 Q. That was Lisa Childs? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And Anita -- 11 A. Carey. 12 Q. Who is the supervisor of Lisa Childs and 13 Anita Carey? 14 A. I believe Debbie is, Debbie Goss or Terry 15 Bates. 16 Q. Do you know if the environmental staff when 17 they make their aerial inspections, if they prepare 18 any sort of report? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. You also mentioned that the environmental 21 staff sometimes when they do their aerial inspections, 22 they bring along a consultant. What type of 23 consultant would that be? 24 A. Most of the time it would be an on the 25 ground inspection. The consultant would be an JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 37 1 engineering consultant or an environmental consultant, 2 someone obtained by the owner or developer. 3 Q. Does that consultant go along at the 4 request of the District or at the request of the 5 owner? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. You also mentioned that you are involved in 8 answering complaints. If someone were to call the 9 District and complain that there was some sort of a 10 violation relating to a permit, how would you learn of 11 that? 12 A. How would I learn -- 13 Q. That the person had called and that a 14 complaint had been made. 15 A. The phone call is usually directed to me. 16 Q. Do you get all the phone calls or 17 complaints from third parties that deal with your 18 geographical area? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Which particular complaints get referred to 21 you? 22 A. I guess all of them that my supervisor 23 can't handle over the phone. 24 Q. So your supervisor is also involved with 25 answering the phone calls or the complaints that are JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 38 1 coming in? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is there anyone else who answers or deals 4 personally with these people who are calling with 5 complaints? 6 A. Sometimes. 7 Q. Who would that be? 8 A. It depends, if one of us is on vacation or 9 both of us, someone else would be assigned to cover in 10 the interim. 11 Q. But normally it would be only you and Mr. 12 Botka? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What is Mr. Botka's title with the 15 District? 16 A. Regulatory professional I, I believe. 17 Q. Are there any other personnel that report 18 directly to Mr. Botka? 19 A. No. 20 Q. When you do get a phone call from someone 21 who has a complaint regarding the permitting, do you 22 normally prepare some sort of a report or notation 23 that you have received this phone call? 24 A. If it's a legitimate complaint. 25 Q. What do you mean by a legitimate complaint? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 39 1 A. If there's actually something going on that 2 concerns the District. Most complaints are just 3 flooding complaints or low lake levels. They are not 4 generally enforcement-related. 5 Q. And you are only concerned with those 6 complaints that are enforcement-related? 7 A. No. 8 Q. So if you got a call complaining about 9 flooding, you would do an inspection? 10 A. Sometimes. Again if it's -- usually I 11 would, but I'd need to substantiate some things. 12 Q. What type of things would you need to 13 substantiate? 14 A. The location, if there's been any rainfall, 15 it could be a chronic complainer. 16 Q. Do you also respond to any letters that you 17 may receive from people with complaints regarding 18 permitting? 19 A. Myself? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Eric would respond to those. 22 Q. Do you know if Eric has particular files 23 devoted strictly to that type of correspondence? 24 A. I believe so, but they are his files, I 25 don't know. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 40 1 Q. What type of information would be contained 2 in any files that you might have in your office? 3 A. In any files? 4 Q. Dealing with the work that you are doing at 5 the District. 6 A. A lot of different things. 7 Q. Are there any particular reports or any 8 particular type of items that you prepare on a regular 9 basis? 10 A. I try to keep everything that Field 11 Engineering generates in the file, if it's worthy of a 12 file. 13 Q. So you would keep copies of all your 14 initial inspection reports? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Why don't you keep copies of those? 17 A. Again, we just take a printout off the 18 computer. I mark whether there is activity or not and 19 turn it over to the enforcement. Then I chuck the old 20 one. 21 Q. You mentioned originally that you also work 22 on enforcements. Other than doing the initial 23 inspection reports, what type of work do you do 24 regarding enforcements? 25 A. The initial enforcement violation report JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 41 1 and subsequent inspections, followup inspections. 2 Q. The initial enforcement violation report, 3 is that the same as your initial inspection report? 4 A. I suppose it could be but it's not very 5 often. 6 Q. Is there a different form that you use for 7 that? 8 A. Again, the initial is just a computer 9 printout that we've got on the disc and we have 10 regular inspection forms that were used for report 11 writing. 12 Q. And the initial enforcement violation 13 report is on the regular inspection report, regular 14 form? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is the initial enforcement violation report 17 also turned over to the enforcement staff? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You mentioned that the deputy division 20 director was also involved in this enforcement 21 process. How is the deputy division director 22 involved? 23 A. I think I said the division director. 24 Q. So the deputy, or there is no deputy 25 division director? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 42 1 A. I guess there is one now. He is based in 2 Okeechobee right now. 3 Q. He is not involved in the enforcement 4 process? 5 A. Not with me. 6 Q. What is the role of the legal staff in the 7 enforcement process? 8 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form. 9 A. They again coordinate with our enforcement 10 staff concerning the rules and regulations violated 11 and what we, the District, basically want to do about 12 it. 13 Q. Do you know if there is any set procedure 14 that the enforcement staff or the legal staff follow 15 to coordinate? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Do you know if there is anyone in 18 particular in Legal who is involved with the 19 enforcement aspect? 20 A. The only name I have heard is John Fumero. 21 Q. Can you spell that last name? 22 A. F U M E R O, I believe that's right. 23 Q. You also mentioned that you did special 24 investigations. What type of special investigations 25 do you do? I think it was special investigations, JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 43 1 were the words that you used. 2 A. Yes. What kind? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. It could be something generated from the 5 executive office. 6 Q. What type of special investigation would be 7 generated by the executive office? 8 A. Say, if a citizen or whoever writes to the 9 executive office, say Mr. Wodraska or whatever, it 10 gets passed down the line to us and it becomes a 11 special investigation more or less to the EO. 12 Q. So if you were to receive a request from 13 the executive office to investigate a particular 14 complaint that they had received, you would go out and 15 do your initial inspection or aerial inspection. How 16 would you then report back to the executive office? 17 A. It depends whether they requested something 18 in writing or verbal, I guess. 19 Q. If they requested a written response, would 20 you prepare that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Who would prepare that? 23 A. Eric would do most of it. 24 Q. If they did not request a written response, 25 would you orally communicate with them? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 44 1 A. Probably Eric would. 2 Q. You also mentioned that you might do some 3 sort of a special investigation for your boss. Under 4 what circumstances would that happen? 5 A. That would be probably something through 6 the executive office that filtered through him or it 7 could be from our department director. 8 Q. What type of special investigation would 9 you do for your department director? 10 A. It could be something similar to the 11 executive office type. 12 Q. Meaning that if he receives -- 13 A. Well, if something was directed directly to 14 him. 15 Q. You also mentioned doing special 16 investigations for Regulatory? 17 A. For Surface Water reviewers. 18 Q. What type of special investigations would 19 they ask you to do? 20 A. They may want to verify something 21 Engineering submitted with the application. 22 Q. Let's go back to the permitting process. 23 The District has gotten in the application, it has 24 been forwarded to you, you have done your initial 25 inspection. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 45 1 What is the next process that the District 2 would take regarding that application? 3 A. It's all in Surface Water Management. 4 Q. It would be the Surface Water Management 5 Division that would handle it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know which particular person or 8 persons in that division would receive the 9 application? 10 A. I assume that one of the three people I 11 named before would delegate it. 12 Q. The three people that you named for the -- 13 A. Ed Yaun, Jenny Hiscock and Kevin Dickson. 14 Q. So the Surface Water Division would receive 15 the application and they would also receive your 16 aerial inspection information? 17 A. Only if there was a problem. 18 Q. Do you know what action they then take with 19 the application? 20 A. If there was a problem? I don't 21 understand. 22 Q. Either way, if there is a problem or if 23 there isn't a problem. What further steps do they 24 need to take with the application? 25 A. They continue reviewing what the engineer JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 46 1 submitted. 2 Q. This is the engineer that was hired by the 3 owner, is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The people that you have mentioned in the 6 Surface Water Division, are they trained engineers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know if they do any sort of 9 inspections of the sites? 10 A. Rarely; sometimes. 11 Q. You said that they review the engineer's 12 work. Do you have any idea of what type of work they 13 do, what it involves, the Surface Water Management 14 Division, when they review the permit application? 15 A. I don't understand. Could you maybe kind 16 of clarify or rephrase it? 17 Q. When the three individuals that you have 18 mentioned, when they receive the permit application, 19 you mentioned that they also review the engineer's 20 work that's contained in the permit application. When 21 they review it, what exactly does that entail? 22 A. A lot of it is just plain number crunching. 23 Q. To determine if the engineer has properly 24 calculated in the permit application? 25 A. Yes. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 47 1 Q. If they determine that everything is fine, 2 the permit application has no problem, what is the 3 next step in the process? 4 A. If it's a big project with the staff 5 report, it goes before the Board, Governing Board. 6 Q. Who prepares the staff report? 7 A. The reviewing engineer. 8 Q. Do you know if anyone reviews the staff 9 report before it goes before the Board? 10 A. A supervisor. 11 Q. The three individuals that you have 12 mentioned, Yuan, Jenny Hiscock and Dickson, are they 13 supervisors or reviewing engineers? 14 A. As far as I know, they do both. To be 15 honest, it's hard to keep up with everything that goes 16 on over there, their personnel changes so much. 17 Q. Do you know who those three individuals 18 report to? 19 A. I believe Tony Waterhouse. 20 Q. What is his position with the District? 21 A. I don't know exactly, the exact title. 22 Q. Is he in the Surface Water Division? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Going back again to the Surface Water 25 Division, if they discover there is a problem with the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 48 1 permit application, what is the next step? 2 A. I guess it depends what kind of problem it 3 is. 4 MS. LAFUENTE: I am going to object to the 5 continuing use of the word "problem;" if we can define 6 it. 7 Q. If there is some reason why they do not 8 give the okay to the permit application, that's what I 9 mean by problem, if there is some deficiency in the 10 permit application, if there is some reason why they 11 are not saying everything is fine and the permit 12 should be granted. 13 If there was some reason that they were 14 saying, wait a minute, there's something wrong here, 15 it needs more information or this permit should not be 16 granted, are there other divisions that would then 17 become involved or is there something that Surface 18 Water would do? 19 A. Other divisions are involved. 20 Q. What other divisions are involved? 21 A. Water Use, Water Quality, Environmental. 22 Q. How is the Water Use Division involved? 23 A. Of course, they are mainly involved if it's 24 a water use permit or application. 25 Q. What would their involvement be if it was a JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 49 1 water use permit or application? 2 A. Same type of things that Surface Water does 3 except water use-related. 4 Q. Is there any particular person in the Water 5 Use Division who would review the permit application? 6 A. Like I said, you kind of get into 7 different, it's water use now, so for water use you 8 have different criteria and different reviewers. 9 Q. You are not involved at all with water use? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What is the involvement of the Water 12 Quality Division in this permitting process? 13 A. Again, part of our rules and regulations, 14 water quality standards have to be met for discharge 15 from these projects, so they do, I guess, their own 16 calculations. 17 Q. Is this something that's a simultaneous 18 process, meaning that they are doing their 19 calculations at the same time that Surface Water is 20 doing their calculations or do they do it first, do 21 they do it subsequent? Is there a particular time 22 process? 23 A. As far as I know, they are looking at the 24 application at the same time. It could be different 25 calculations, though. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 50 1 Q. Do you know any particular person in the 2 Water Quality Division who reviews permit 3 applications? 4 A. I know the main guy, Steve Anderson. 5 Q. What is his title, do you know? 6 A. I think he's a supervising professional but 7 I'm not positive. 8 Q. Do you know if he does any sort of on-site 9 inspections? 10 A. I know he has done some in the past, so I 11 guess so. 12 Q. Do you have any idea what other type of 13 work he does in connection with reviewing the permit 14 application? 15 A. Not specifically, no. 16 Q. Does Mr. Anderson only deal with a 17 particular geographical area? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Is there anyone else at the Water Quality 20 Division that you know who reviews permit 21 applications? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who would that be? 24 A. Eduardo Lopez, Jay Marshall, as far as I 25 know. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 51 1 Q. What is Eduardo Lopez' position? 2 A. I don't know his title. 3 Q. Do you know who he reports to? 4 A. As far as I know, Steve. 5 Q. Do you know Jay Marshall's position? 6 A. Not exactly, no. 7 Q. Does he also report to Mr. Anderson? 8 A. As far as I know. 9 Q. Do you know if the Water Quality Division 10 prepares any reports once they have reviewed the 11 permit application? 12 A. As far as I know they do, yes. 13 Q. Do you know if they have any particular 14 name for the report or the comments that they prepare? 15 A. It would be under Water Quality in the 16 staff report. 17 MS. LAFUENTE: Can we go off the record for 18 a minute? 19 (Discussion off the record) 20 (Luncheon recess) 21 AFTERNOON SESSION 22 1:00 p.m. 23 MS. LAFUENTE: Before we go further, as to 24 Mr. Ratcliffe's resume, due to a miscommunication, I 25 hadn't produced it previously but now we are ready to JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 52 1 produce it. 2 (Deposition Exhibit RR 1 was marked for 3 identification) 4 BY MS. DONLAN: 5 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, would you take a look at 6 what we have marked as Exhibit RR 1. I ask if you can 7 identify that. 8 (Pause) 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is that? 11 A. It is my resume. 12 Q. When was that prepared? 13 A. I believe the winter or spring of 1989. 14 Q. Meaning the winter of 1989, spring of 1990 15 or winter of 1988, spring of 1989? 16 A. It must have been the winter and spring of 17 1989, like January, February, March of 1989, somewhere 18 in there, April, something like that. 19 Q. Were you exploring other employment 20 opportunities at that time? 21 A. Always. 22 Q. Are you currently exploring other 23 employment opportunities? 24 A. I keep my eyes open. 25 Q. Do you have any plans at the present time JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 53 1 to leave your position? 2 A. At this time, no. 3 Q. Mr. Ratcliffe, attached to the notice of 4 your deposition was a document entitled duces tecum 5 which asked you to produce various documents. Have 6 you brought with you any of the documents that we have 7 requested? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you have in your possession or custody, 10 any of these documents that are listed on the duces 11 tecum? 12 A. To the best we could figure out, no. 13 Q. Were any of your files produced during the 14 original production session in response to the United 15 States' first request for production? 16 A. I don't believe so. 17 Q. To your knowledge, are there any documents 18 in your files that are responsive to the United 19 States' first request for production? 20 A. No. 21 Q. It was mentioned previously that permit 22 files were not going to be produced. What permit 23 files are there in your department? 24 A. They are backup field files to the main 25 vault files. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 54 1 Q. What type of information would be in those 2 files? 3 A. Pretty much the same things that are in the 4 main vault permits, the main vault permit. 5 Q. What type of information is in the main 6 vault -- 7 A. The permit itself, the staff report, the 8 special conditions, site plans, construction plans, 9 aerials, topographic surveys. 10 Q. Which divisions are involved in preparing 11 the staff report? 12 A. Well, if it's surface water, then it would 13 be Surface Water and some Natural Resource Management. 14 Q. What involvement would Natural Resource 15 Management have in the permitting process? 16 A. Water Quality and Environmental. 17 Q. When you referred previously to the Water 18 Quality Division and Environmental being involved in 19 the permitting process, you were talking as part of 20 the Natural Resource Management Division? 21 A. Yes, they are both in that division. 22 Q. Are they separate divisions, is Water 23 Quality and Environmental separate divisions? 24 A. It's not a separate division, it's a 25 separate section. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 55 1 Q. Do you know who is the head of the Water 2 Quality Section? 3 A. Steve Anderson. 4 Q. Who is the head of the Environmental 5 Section? 6 A. I guess it would be Stewart Bradow. He's 7 Steve's boss also. 8 Q. Are there any other divisions who 9 contribute to the staff report? 10 A. For Surface Water, no. 11 Q. Am I correct that your knowledge extends 12 solely to Surface Water, you don't have any 13 familiarity with any of the other type of permits? 14 A. A limited amount. 15 Q. Do you know of any of the other divisions 16 that might be involved with the different types of 17 permits that would be contributing to the staff 18 report? 19 A. For Surface Water? 20 Q. No, for different types of permits other 21 than Surface Water. 22 A. There's Water Use, Right-of-Way permits. 23 Q. Are there other divisions that would be 24 contributing to the staff report for those? 25 A. Yes. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 56 1 Q. Do you know who those are, which divisions? 2 A. Probably Water Use Division. The 3 Right-of-Way is a separate division, it's not in the 4 Department of Regulation. 5 Q. What is the difference between the Water 6 Quality and the Environmental sections? 7 MS. LAFUENTE: Object as to form. 8 A. Environmental is pretty much what it says. 9 Environmental is wetlands, plants, animals. Water 10 Quality deals mainly, I guess, with what kind of 11 water, the quality of the water that leaves the site. 12 Q. To your knowledge does the Environmental 13 Section deal at all with water quality issues? 14 A. I guess sometimes to a certain degree. I'm 15 not exactly positive in most of the ways, though. 16 Q. When you do the on-site inspections or you 17 do your aerial inspections of different projects, are 18 you concerned with water quality issues? 19 A. If there's a problem, yes. 20 Q. What type of an inspection do you do 21 concerning water quality? 22 A. The main type of inspection concerning 23 water quality that Field Engineering does would be a 24 turbidity violation. 25 Q. How do you determine if there is a JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 57 1 turbidity violation? 2 A. Experience. 3 Q. Do you take any sort of scientific data? 4 A. We take turbidity samples. 5 Q. What is the procedure for taking turbidity 6 samples? 7 A. Turbidity is muddy or cloudy water created 8 by suspended particles. If it's above, if it is 9 departing off-site and if it's going into a clean 10 canal and you have got muddy water, you just see with 11 your eyes that there is a problem and from there you 12 take your samples. There is a certain set procedure 13 that we have. 14 Q. Are you the person who actually takes the 15 samples? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Explain to me the process. 18 A. It's a two-part thing. I will take the 19 initial and then either myself or sometimes somebody 20 from our chemistry lab will come and do a more 21 detailed verification of the water sample. 22 Q. How does this person do a more detailed 23 evaluation? 24 A. They have more specialized equipment. 25 Q. What type of equipment do you use when you JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 58 1 take your samples? 2 A. It's called a nephlometer. 3 Q. Can you spell that? 4 A. N E P H L O M E T E R. 5 Q. How does that work? 6 A. You put the sample in the machine and light 7 is basically shined through and depending upon how 8 much light makes it through the sample, the machine 9 registers, a laboratory unit. 10 Q. Are these samples taken at the site, is the 11 machine brought to the site? 12 A. Yes, by machine. 13 Q. When the person from the chemistry lab 14 comes out, do they take the equipment with them or do 15 they have to bring the samples back to the lab? 16 A. They take it back to the lab. 17 Q. Is there a particular person that you deal 18 with at the chemistry lab? 19 A. I guess mainly Larry Grosser. 20 Q. On what occasions would you ask someone 21 from the chemistry lab to go out with you to a site 22 inspection? 23 A. The other type of water quality violation 24 which would be if someone was dewatering within one 25 mile of a landfill, and then they would take the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 59 1 samples. 2 Q. Why would you need the chemistry lab to 3 take those samples? 4 A. That's what they do. They are set up for 5 it. They have all the equipment for it. 6 Q. Would your machine not be able to detect if 7 there was a violation? 8 A. No. 9 Q. It would not be able to detect it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you have any other familiarity with 12 water quality issues in the permitting process? 13 A. No. 14 Q. The area that you are responsible for, does 15 that include the EAA? 16 A. I guess part of it technically I go all the 17 way out to the county line which includes western Palm 18 Beach County. 19 Q. Have you ever taken any water quality 20 samples from any area in the EAA? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know if anyone else has ever taken 23 any water quality samples from the EAA? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Who is the area engineer for South Palm JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 60 1 Beach? 2 A. Eric Botka. 3 Q. What is his educational background, what 4 type of an engineer is he? 5 A. I believe he has an ocean engineering 6 background. 7 Q. At the beginning of the permitting process, 8 when you receive the permit application, my 9 understanding is that there is some sort of a 30-day 10 letter that's sent out by the District. Are you 11 familiar with that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Who prepares that 30-day letter? 14 A. The reviewing engineer in Surface Water. 15 Q. Do you know if that reviewing engineer 16 receives any input from any other individuals? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who would he receive input from for that 19 30-day letter? 20 A. Besides the engineer for the application, 21 the Environmental Section, Water Quality and sometimes 22 Field Engineering. 23 Q. Would this be in the form of written 24 communications from these divisions? 25 A. I believe so. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 61 1 Q. Do you know if these are normally reports 2 or correspondence or memos? 3 A. I don't know for sure. I don't generate 4 any myself. 5 Q. Do you know if Eric Botka generates any of 6 them? 7 A. I have never known him to. 8 Q. Do you know who in Field Engineering might 9 generate it? 10 A. Possibly Eric or Ed from time to time. It 11 also could be verbal. 12 Q. When you refer to Ed, who do you refer to? 13 A. Edward Maciejko. 14 Q. Do you ever have any input into the 15 comments that are made in the 30-day letter? 16 A. There's been none that I know of. 17 Q. What is the agricultural staff report? 18 A. I don't understand exactly what you want to 19 know. 20 Q. Have you ever seen a document entitled 21 Agricultural Staff Report? 22 A. It's the same thing as a regular staff 23 report except it's an agricultural project. 24 Q. Have you ever seen an agricultural staff 25 report dealing with any properties in the EAA? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 62 1 A. Less than a handful. 2 Q. Does the District currently require that 3 projects in the EAA get Surface Water Management 4 permits? 5 A. If they are a brand new project, I would 6 assume they have to, yes. 7 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form. 8 Q. Has the District always required this for 9 as long as you have been with the District? 10 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form. 11 A. As far as I know. 12 Q. Are water quality monitoring programs ever 13 a requirement under a Surface Water Management permit? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Under what conditions or in what 16 circumstances? 17 A. It depends. It's out of my area. I don't 18 make the reports or criteria or anything on that. 19 Q. Who would be involved in making that type 20 of a determination, that a monitoring program would be 21 required? 22 A. Water Quality. 23 Q. Which would be Mr. Anderson? 24 A. Mr. Anderson. 25 Q. Are there any biologists that are involved JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 63 1 in your division or that work in your division? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are there any biologists to your knowledge 4 that are involved in the permitting process? 5 A. I believe some of the environmental staff 6 have biology degrees, yes. 7 Q. That would be Mr. Anderson's staff? 8 A. No, the Environmental Section, the 9 environmentalists. 10 Q. Which would be Mr. Bradow? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know in particular any of the people 13 in his group who are biologists? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know if he is in fact a biologist, 16 Mr. Bradow? 17 A. I don't know what his degree is in. 18 Q. Do you know if any of the personnel in the 19 Environmental Section take water quality samples at 20 any of the projects? 21 A. I don't know for sure, possibly Water 22 Quality. 23 Q. Do you know any particular people who might 24 be involved in doing that? 25 A. Steve Anderson and his group, I imagine. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 64 1 Q. So is the Water Quality Group actually a 2 part of the Environmental Group or are they separate? 3 A. Both. They are both under the Natural 4 Resource Management Division and they work in 5 conjunction with each other, but they are sort of 6 separate. 7 Q. Have you ever performed any tests to 8 measure biological diversity? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know anyone at the District who does 11 that? 12 A. Could you clarify or expound on that a 13 little more, biological diversity? 14 Q. Basically anybody that would be able to go 15 out and tell if there was any sort of imbalance in the 16 Flora and fauna. 17 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form. 18 A. I guess the closest thing would be 19 environmentalists on the environmental staff. I don't 20 know if that's exactly what they do. 21 Q. Does anyone from Research and Evaluation 22 ever go out with you to do on-site inspections? 23 A. There's been once or twice when they have. 24 Q. Who at Research and Evaluation has gone out 25 with you? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 65 1 A. Jeff Saura. 2 Q. How do you spell the last name? 3 A. S A U R A. 4 Jamie Jenkins, I believe is his last name. 5 Q. What are their positions at the District? 6 A. I don't know their titles. They work for 7 Larry Grosser. 8 Q. Why did they go out with you for 9 inspections? 10 A. It was only once, it was for the water 11 quality violation we discussed before concerning 12 dewatering near a landfill. They took the samples. 13 Q. Why were they asked to take the samples as 14 opposed to the person in the chemistry lab, or are 15 they in the chemistry lab? 16 A. They are part of the chemistry lab. 17 Q. In order to obtain the position that you 18 have obtained, what type of training did you go 19 through to train you to do the inspections that you do 20 as part of your normal course? 21 A. That's kind of a tough one. At the time it 22 was pretty much on-the-job training. 23 Q. Who were you trained by? 24 A. Well, realistically nobody. That sounds 25 kind of stupid, but I rode with a field repetitive JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 66 1 that had been there for a while. I rode in his area 2 and he taught me, he showed me some things. 3 Q. Who was that? 4 A. That was Hal Herbst. 5 Q. How do you spell the last name? 6 A. H E R B S T. 7 Q. Is he still with the District? 8 A. I believe he's in Right-of-Way. 9 Q. Is it Mr. Herbst who trained you in how to 10 use the machine that you use to take water quality 11 samples? 12 A. The nephlometer, yes. 13 Q. How long have you been working with Mr. 14 Botka? 15 A. Working with or under? 16 Q. Are you working with Mr. Botka or working 17 under him? 18 A. I worked with Mr. Botka since December of 19 1985. He's been my supervisor since, I guess the end 20 of January of this year. 21 Q. What was his position before January of 22 this year? 23 A. He was an enforcement field representative. 24 Q. Would you say that it is your division that 25 has primary responsibility for conducting on-site JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 67 1 inspections? 2 A. For surface water, yes. 3 Q. Are there any other individuals in your 4 division other than yourself and Mr. Botka who conduct 5 on-site inspections? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who are those individuals? 8 A. It's almost the whole division. 9 Q. The whole division is involved in doing 10 inspections? 11 A. From one time to another, yes. 12 Q. Are they divided up in some way, whether 13 geographically or type of permit? 14 A. Geographically. 15 Q. Are there any other individuals in your 16 division who do inspections in the EAA area? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Which individuals are those? 19 A. Bobby Pearce, E A R C E. 20 Q. Anyone else? 21 A. Possibly Steve Lumpkins. 22 Q. Do you know if they are involved in taking 23 water quality samples from EAA? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Do you know when the District started JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 68 1 requiring Surface Water Management permits in the EAA? 2 A. Exact date, no. 3 Q. Approximate date? 4 A. I think somewhere around 1973 is when we 5 got into permitting. 6 Q. Do you know if there were any permits 7 issued in 1973 or in that approximate time frame for 8 projects in the EAA? 9 A. I wouldn't know. 10 Q. Do you know if when you started working for 11 the District, there were any permits issued for 12 projects in the EAA? 13 A. Not in my area, as far as I know. 14 Q. As far as you know, when is the first 15 instance that you can recall that Surface Water 16 Management permits were issued for projects in the 17 EAA? 18 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 19 A. As far as I know, almost all those farms 20 have been existing farm operations for years and years 21 and they are more or less grandfathered in. 22 Q. When you say they are grandfathered in, 23 does that mean that they do not have permits? 24 A. No. Honestly, I don't know exactly how 25 that works, but I know probably nine out of ten of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 69 1 them have been existing for years and years. 2 Q. And do they have permits? 3 A. As far as I know. 4 MS. LAFUENTE: You don't need to speculate 5 if you don't know. 6 Q. Have you ever done an on-site inspection 7 for any of the farms in the EAA? 8 A. Less than a handful. 9 Q. Do you recall any of the circumstances or 10 reasons that you were asked to do inspections in the 11 EAA? 12 A. One was just a simple dike inspection. 13 The engineer had sent a dike report inspection in, so 14 I just was sent out to check on it. 15 Q. Do you recall any of the other 16 circumstances? 17 A. Could you clarify or restate? 18 Q. Any of the other reasons that you may have 19 gone out to the EAA to do inspections. 20 A. We got one of those special inspection 21 requests a couple months ago. 22 Q. What was the nature of that request? 23 A. S.N. Knight was complaining, sent a letter 24 to the executive office complaining that some of the 25 farm fields were getting flooded through or by the JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 70 1 Compartment D in Loxahatchee Natural Wildlife Refuge. 2 Q. Did you go out and do an inspection? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What did you find was occurring? 5 A. We found a couple things. I don't know if 6 we found anything absolutely conclusive on the problem 7 on the complaint. 8 Q. What did you find? 9 A. Could you clarify that? 10 Q. When you went out and did your inspection, 11 what did you see, what did you observe? 12 A. We didn't observe anything unusual. 13 Everything that we saw that had been there had been in 14 existence for years. 15 Q. Did you determine that there was any 16 validity to the complaint? 17 A. Possibly. 18 Q. Do you recall if the refuge was given any 19 specific instructions as a result of your inspection? 20 Let me show you something and see if this may assist 21 you. 22 I show you a letter dated November 16, 1990 23 addressed to Burkett Neely. 24 (Pause) 25 Q. I ask you if you have ever seen this letter JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 71 1 before. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are you familiar with the contents of that 4 letter? 5 A. More or less. 6 Q. Does this letter help you to answer the 7 question I asked you previously as to basically what 8 you determined on your inspection? 9 A. It's not that simple an answer for me to 10 give the way you state it. It would be a long, long 11 answer. I'd have to start at the beginning. 12 Q. Go ahead and start at the beginning. 13 A. Like I said, we got a complaint from S.N. 14 Knight. We were requested to investigate. 15 Myself, Eric Botka, Rodney Milton, he's 16 with the field station, Burkett Neely and I guess this 17 guy Alan Flock, we met to discuss Compartment D, what 18 their opinions were, what has or hasn't been going on 19 there. 20 Apparently in 1987 more or less a 21 modification was given to the refuge to replace a 22 couple risers with some flapgates and the Federal 23 government never had the money so they never did it. 24 And Mr. Knight apparently was, he felt that water was 25 backflowing through these risers and then somehow this JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 72 1 is connected with some of his farmland, he was 2 thinking some of this extra water was flooding his 3 field. 4 We found the risers are there, there is no 5 flapgate yet, modification has not occurred, and there 6 was a lot of seepage coming under the L 7 levy. So it 7 was more than just one simple, clear-cut -- and 8 apparently there was some work going on at S 6 that 9 had the Hillsboro Canal a little higher too so that 10 might have caused some water to go back through. 11 MS. LAFUENTE: Can I interrupt for a 12 moment, are we going to put this into the record? 13 MS. DONLAN: Yes, I am going to mark that 14 as Exhibit No. 2. 15 (Deposition Exhibit RR 2 was marked for 16 identification) 17 Q. Was the refuge instructed to do something 18 or not to do something? 19 A. Looks like what they were instructed to do 20 was in this letter here. I don't know all the 21 details. 22 I was part of the inspection team that made 23 the inspection. As far as writing the reports and 24 following memos and letters from our division for Tom 25 MacVicar, whatever, I had no part in that, any part of JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 73 1 the decision-making process. 2 Q. Did you make any sort of recommendations as 3 a result of the inspection? 4 A. No. 5 Q. If there was a complaint about effluent 6 being discharged on adjacent land, who would be 7 responsible for going out and doing that inspection? 8 A. Almost all the time, Field Engineering. 9 Q. Is that something that you might be asked 10 to go out and do an inspection on? 11 A. Yes. 12 What exactly do you mean by effluent, 13 though? 14 Q. Just in general terms, nothing 15 specifically. Is there a difference? 16 A. Yes, if there was turbidity, I would. If 17 there was something to do with water quality such as 18 nitrogen, phosphorus, I wouldn't do that. 19 Q. Would that be something that the 20 Environmental or Water Quality would do? 21 A. Either Water Quality or Water Chemistry; 22 I'm not sure which, though. 23 Q. When you say Water Chemistry -- 24 A. Part of the DRE, Research and Evaluation. 25 Q. Who is in charge of the Water Chemistry JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 74 1 Section or Division? 2 A. I can't recall at this time. 3 Q. Would the Water Chemistry Group be 4 concerned at all with water quality issues? 5 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 6 A. Could you clarify that or expound? 7 Q. Would the Water Chemistry Group have any 8 responsibilities for taking any sort of water quality 9 samples? 10 A. I don't know what kind of setup they do or 11 they have down there, to tell you the truth. 12 Q. Do you know if the farmers in the EAA are 13 required to turn in any sort of water quality data to 14 the District on a regular basis? 15 A. I don't know for sure. 16 Q. Who would know that? 17 A. Steve Anderson. 18 Q. Do you know if the Surface Water Management 19 permits ever require as one of their conditions that 20 there be some sort of water quality monitoring program 21 established? 22 A. Yes. I answered that yes before. 23 Q. Under what circumstances would that be made 24 a condition for a permit? 25 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 75 1 A. It depends what kind of permit it is. 2 Q. If it was a Surface Water Management 3 permit. 4 A. It depends if it's a commercial site, 5 industrial site, a farm site. 6 Q. If it was a farm site, under what 7 conditions would that be a requirement? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Is that something again that Mr. Anderson 10 would have more knowledge? 11 A. Yes, it's not my area. 12 Q. Do you know how it is determined that in 13 fact a project should be permitted? 14 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 15 A. Could you clarify or expound on that? 16 Q. Do you know how it is determined that a 17 particular project under the laws of the State of 18 Florida should be permitted? 19 A. There's different rules and regulations 20 that each county, basin, different geographic area of 21 the District has. 22 Q. Are you also concerned with determining if 23 a particular project is in violation of specific 24 conditions of its permit? 25 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 76 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What do you do to determine that in fact a 3 project is in violation of its permit? How do you go 4 about determining that a project is in violation? 5 A. By reading the staff report or the special 6 conditions. 7 Q. Are you ever given any sort of guidance or 8 directive in how to interpret the staff report or the 9 special conditions? 10 A. Sometimes. Most of them are clear-cut, but 11 I guess sometimes. 12 Q. If you were to have a question, who would 13 you go to? 14 A. Generally I go to Eric first. 15 Q. Is there anyone else you might consult 16 with? 17 A. Depending, if it was environmental, I would 18 go to the environmentalists. If it was water quality, 19 you go to the Water Quality people. 20 Q. Have you ever consulted with anyone in the 21 Environmental Group over any question you may have had 22 concerning an interpretation of a special condition on 23 a permit? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who have you consulted with? JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 77 1 A. Debbie Goss, I believe Anita Carey. Those 2 are the main people I deal with, possibly one or two 3 other people at other times, but those are the main 4 people I've dealt with. 5 Q. Have you ever consulted with anyone in the 6 Water Quality Group? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who at that group? 9 A. I've talked to Steve Anderson or Eduardo 10 Lopez. 11 Q. Do you know who makes the decision as to 12 what conditions are included in each permit? 13 A. It's made by the reviewers and their 14 supervisors for each section. 15 Q. Do you have any input at all in this 16 decision as to what conditions are included on a 17 permit? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Other than the one instance that we have 20 mentioned with the Loxahatchee Natural Wildlife 21 Refuge, do you know of any other instance where there 22 was a water quality violation? 23 A. Would you repeat that? 24 MS. LAFUENTE: Object to the form. 25 (Question read) JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 78 1 A. No, first of all, this other instance 2 wasn't a violation as far as I know, it was never 3 called a violation. And no to the main question. 4 Q. When you say a violation, what is your 5 definition of a violation? 6 A. This one looks more like a deficiency. It 7 just hasn't been done. I've never seen anything that 8 actually said that this was a violation. And I myself 9 don't make the definitive answer whether it is a 10 violation or enforcement. 11 Q. What is the difference between a deficiency 12 and a violation? 13 A. Deficiency is a deviation from the special 14 conditions or nonexistent. They didn't do it or they 15 didn't do it right. 16 Q. What is a violation? 17 A. Again, like I said, trashing wetlands, 18 digging ditches or moving earth without a permit. 19 Q. But isn't that also a deviation from a 20 condition? 21 A. Not if it's got a permit, it might not be. 22 Q. Meaning it might not be included as a 23 condition in the permit? I'm just trying to 24 understand what the difference is between the two. 25 You are saying that there is a deficiency and then JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 79 1 there is a violation. I am trying to understand the 2 difference. 3 A. Almost all the time violations and 4 enforcements occur on property that does not have a 5 permit. That's not set in stone but most of the time. 6 Q. What actions can the District take to 7 enforce permit requirements? 8 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 9 A. A lot of different things. 10 Q. Can you give me some examples? 11 A. Legal is one. 12 Q. By legal, do you mean bringing some sort of 13 a litigation, lawsuit? 14 A. Possible. 15 Q. What other options can you think of? 16 A. Withholding modification of the permit if 17 they are in for a modification. 18 Q. Are you aware of any particular actions 19 that the District has taken to enforce permit 20 requirements? 21 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 22 A. Mainly in the deficiency area. 23 Q. Can you give me some examples? 24 A. Specific examples or just general? 25 Q. Just general. JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 80 1 A. Generally if there's a deficiency, you try 2 to work it out in a friendly, amicable manner, to 3 communicate and try to do it the easy way, basically. 4 The hard way would be going through legal. 5 Q. Can you recall any of the specific 6 directions given to permit holders in order to bring 7 them into compliance with the permits? 8 A. Could you repeat that again or clarify a 9 little bit. 10 MS. DONLAN: Try reading it back. 11 (Question read) 12 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 13 A. Normally we contact the owner or the 14 engineer of record and explain the problem and most of 15 the time they work with us and we get it fixed. 16 Q. Do you recall any instances where the 17 District has instructed the permit holders not to 18 discharge water? 19 A. Could you clarify discharging water a 20 little more? 21 Q. Can you think of any instances where the 22 District has basically told the project holder not to 23 release any water on to adjacent land or into canals 24 or on to any adjacent property? 25 A. Lots of times during the construction JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 81 1 phase. 2 Q. You say during the construction phase. Why 3 then particularly? 4 A. Because most of the time it's turbid water. 5 Q. Are you familiar with the lawsuit against 6 the Lakes Company? 7 MS. LAFUENTE: Objection. 8 A. It depends on what you mean by familiar. 9 Yes, I know about it; details, no, I don't know 10 anything about it. 11 Q. Do you know at all what the outcome of that 12 was? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know if the District has ever 15 limited the amount of water that the EAA farmers take 16 out of the canals? 17 A. Well, in the Water Use permit that they 18 have, they are allocated a certain amount every year. 19 That's what they are supposed to go by. 20 Q. Let me show you a document which I don't 21 believe is dated. This appears to be from Susan 22 Coughanour. It is a memo and attached to that are 23 some papers. 24 (Pause) 25 Q. I ask you if you have ever seen that JACK BESONER & ASSOCIATES, INC. 172 West Flagler Street, Miami, FL 33130 (305) 371-1537 82 1 before. 2 (Deposition Exhibit RR 3 was marked for 3 identification) 4 A. I've never seen this memo, no. 5 Q. Have you ever seen the draft report that's 6 attached to it which I think is referred to as the 7 Rules and Enforcement Program? 8 A. I don't think I've ever seen this draft. 9 Of course, a lot of the stuff that's in here is 10 nothing new and I've seen a lot of it before. 11 Q. Do you know if the final report of this has 12 been prepared? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Do you know anyone at the District other 15 than Susan Coughanour, of course, who would be 16 involved in preparing that report? 17 A. First of all, I didn't know Susan was 18 involved in the report. Sure, I know some of the 19 names on here. 20 Q. Do you know if any of them are involved in 21 preparing that report? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. If the District were to receive a complaint 24 about an alleged water quality violation in connection