** 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA CASE NO. 88-1886-CIV-HOEVELER UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) VS. ) ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) DISTRICT; JOHN R. WODRASKA, ) EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SOUTH FLORIDA ) WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT; ) FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL ) REGULATION; AND DALE TWACHTMANN, ) SECRETARY, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF ) ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION, et. al., ) ) Defendants. ) / DEPOSITION OF BRENT MOLL TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF *** DATE: August 27, 1990 PROFESSIONAL REPORTING SERVICE Commerce Center 324 Datura Street, Suite 303 West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 (407) 659-4046 ** 2 INDEX August 27, 1990 DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS BRENT MOLL By Ms. Beverly Nash 5 By Mr. Joe Richards 23 ** 3 The deposition of Brent Moll, in the above-entitled and numbered cause, was taken before me, KAREN BAUER FRY, C.S.R., Court Reporter and Notary Public for the State of Florida at Large, at Professional Reporting Service, Commerce Center, 324 Datura Street, in the City of West Palm Beach, Palm Beach County, in the State of Florida, beginning at the hour of 1:10 o'clock p.m., on August 27, 1990, pursuant to the Notice in said cause for the taking of said deposition, which is annexed to the Court file herein, on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action pending in the above-named court. The appearances at said time and place were as follows: Beverly Sherman Nash, Esquire U.S. Department of Justice Environmental and Natural Resources Division P. O. Box 663 Washington, D.C. 20044-0663 Attorney for Plaintiff Joseph Richards, Esquire Peeples, Earl & Blank, P.A. Two South Biscayne Blvd. One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636 Miami, Florida 33131 Attorney for cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston ** 4 Katharine Stollman, Esquire Allison Burdette Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher, & Flom 1440 New York Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 Attorney for South Florida Water Management District Jackie Waters, Esquire So. Florida Water Management District Box 24680 3301 Gun Club Road West Palm Beach, FL 33416 ALSO PRESENT: Toni Lafuente Mike Rose David Buker ** 5 THEREUPON, BRENT MOLL being by me first duly sworn to tell the whole truth, as hereinafter certified, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. NASH: Q. Mr. Moll, I'm Beverly Nash, counsel for the United States in this litigation. We're here today to understand how the Water Management District's computers are set up, how they're used, what the nature of the data is on the computers, and how that data is formatted. You were submitted as a representative of the district having knowledge of one or more areas of inquiry that we're interested in. Have you been shown the list of categories? A. Yes. Q. Which categories are you here to respond to today? A. All the ones I have knowledge of. Q. And what are those? A. May I have the list, please? Should I go ** 6 through them sequentially? Q. Yes. A. Okay. I have knowledge of Area 1. I have knowledge of Area 2. I have knowledge of Area 3. I have knowledge of certain areas of Area 4, Area 5 appropriate to the systems in Area 4. I have knowledge of (6) e., (6) h., (9) a., (9) c., (9) d. Q. Thank you. What is your present title or position? A. I am senior planner of geographic information systems. Q. And what division or department is that? A. Environmental planning. Q. What is your job description? A. My function at the district is to design and develop geographic information systems. Q. And how long have you been in that role? A. I've been in that role since September of 1987. Q. Have you had other positions at the Water Management District? A. No. Q. What is your educational background? A. I have masters degrees in geography, geographic information processing, remote sensing ** 7 and computer systems design. Q. Who are your supervisors in the geographic information systems? A. My direct supervisor is David Black. Q. And what is his title? A. I'm not aware of what his specific title is. Q. Are there employees that work for you? A. I do not supervise anyone. Q. Are there others that work with you in geographic information systems? A. Yes. Q. And who are they? A. To what extent? Q. Are there others in your office that work with you? A. Yes. Q. And who are they? A. All the people of the planning department. There is no -- any specific individuals whom I work with. I was hired by the district to plan for the entire district. Q. What computers do you use at the Water Management District? A. I use computers from IBM, Digital ** 8 Equipment Corporation, and SUN Microsystems. Q. Which IMB computers do you utilize? A. Personal computer. Q. Which IBM personal computer? A. AT. Q. What work do you do on the IMB AT? A. Word processing, remote sensing, geographic information processing, that's all. Q. What software package or packages do you use for word processing on the IBM? A. Word Perfect. Q. Any others? A. No. Q. What software package or packages do you use for remote sensing on the IMB? A. ERDAS. Q. And what software packages do you use for geographic information processing on the IBM? A. ARC/INFO. Q. What work do you do on the DEC? A. Data access, relational data base management system access. Q. Where is the data located that you're accessing using the DEC? A. On the computer system. It's not ** 9 physically in my office. Q. Is the information you're accessing using the DEC on the DEC or are you using the DEC to access information on other computers? A. I used the PC in my office to access information on the DEC, which is not in my office. Q. What is the nature of the data on the DEC that you access? A. Test data for system development. Q. Is there a file name for this test data? A. No specific. Q. Do you do any other work besides data access using the DEC? A. No. Q. What work do you do on the SUN Microsystem computer? A. Develop GIS and remote sensing systems. Q. What software do you use on the SUN? A. For what functions? Q. For whatever functions you used software for on the SUN? A. Okay. We have ERDAS for remote sensing. We have ARC/INFO for geographic information processing. We have Oracle for relational data base development. ** 10 Q. Do you use any software that has been developed internally by the Water Management District? A. I program the computer for temporary programming needs. When I am done programming, I discard the program. Q. If I understand your answer, then, there is not set software packages developed by the Water Management District that you utilized? A. No. Q. What documentation or other manual or manuals do you use to assist you on your work on the SUN Microsystems? A. The documentation provided by the hardware vendor. Q. And what documentation or manuals do you use to assist you in your work with the DEC? A. The documentation provided by visual. Q. Are there any internal Water Management District developed manuals to assist you on these machines? A. No. Q. Can you describe the geographic information that you're developing on the SUN Microsystem? ** 11 A. The geographic data on the SUN Microsystems will be data about spatial characteristics of the district as stored in a mapped form, an image form, or a text form. Q. Does there presently exist data about the spatial characteristics of the district in map form? A. There is no operational data on a system at this time. Q. Does there presently exist data on the spatial characteristics of the district in image form? A. Pardon. Q. Does there presently exist data on the spatial characteristics of the district in image form at the present time? A. No. Q. Are you doing any GIS work on the Water Conservation Areas? A. No. Q. Are you doing any GIS work on the Everglades Agricultural Areas? A. No. Q. Are you doing any GIS work on Everglades National Park? ** 12 A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone in the Water Management District is doing GIS work on the Water Conservation Areas? A. No, the systems are not done. Q. Do you know whether anyone in the Water Management District is doing GIS work on the Everglades Agricultural Area? A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone else in the Water Management District is doing GIS work on Everglades National Park? A. No. Q. Are you doing any GIS work related to the water quality? A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone in the Water Management District is doing any GIS work related to water quality? A. I have no such knowledge. Q. Are you doing any GIS work related to vegetation? A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone in the Water Management District is doing any GIS work related ** 13 to vegetation? A. I have no such knowledge. Q. Are you doing any GIS work related to nutrients? A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone in the Water Management District is doing any GIS work related to nutrients? A. I have no such knowledge. Q. Have you done any remote sensing work related to the Water Conservation Areas? A. No. Q. Have you done any remote sensing work related to the Everglades Agricultural Area? A. No. Q. Have you done any remote sensing work related to Everglades National Park? A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone in the Water Management District is doing any remote sensing work related to the Water Conservation Areas? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Is anyone in the Water Management District doing any remote sensing work related to the Everglades Agricultural Area? ** 14 A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Is anyone in the Water Management District doing any remote sensing work related to Everglades National Park? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Have you done any GIS work for purposes of the Everglades SWIM project? A. No. Q. Have you done any GIS work for the Lake Okeechobee Technical Advisory Committee Project? A. No. Q. Have you done any GIS work for the Nutrient Removal Project? A. I don't know what that project is. Q. Have you done any remote sensing work for the Everglades SWIM Plan? A. No. Q. How about remote sensing work for the Lake Okeechobee Technical Advisory Committee? A. No. Q. What is the procedure you utilized to access the DEC through your IBM PC? A. Remote log in. Q. Could you elaborate on that? A. Remote log in is the procedure which we ** 15 access the computer network from a terminal. It allows us to access the different systems on the network. Q. Do you forward any of the work you do to others in the Water Management District by computer? A. Could you repeat the question, please? MS. NASH: Could you read that back? (WHEREUPON, the requested testimony was read back by the court reporter.) A. I don't understand what you mean by forwarding. Could you please elaborate? Q. (By Ms. Nash) Do you transfer data files or text files -- A. Yes. Q. -- to others? A. Yes. Q. To whom do you transfer those files? A. I transfer -- I allow other users to access them. I don't transfer them to anyone specifically. Q. Who in the Water Management Division has ** 16 access to your files? A. In the Water Management Division? Q. Water Management District. A. Anyone who has access to a computer. Q. Is access to your files restricted in any way? A. Only by access to the computer system. Q. Are there entities outside the Water Management District that have access to your files? A. If they're allowed access to our system. Q. Do you know whether there are entities outside the Water Management District that access your files? A. I'm not aware of who has access to the files of the district outside of the district. Q. What GIS data do you have on your computers? A. Test data. Q. What is the nature of that test data? A. To verify the operation of the software and hardware. Q. Have analysis been done on this GIS test data? A. To test the programs to insure they operate the function properly. ** 17 Q. Are there reports of these analyses that have been done on the GIS test data? A. No. Q. What remote sensing data do you have on your computers? A. At the present time, there is no remote sensing data on the computers. Q. You indicated earlier in your answer that you're knowledgeable about satellite imagery. A. Yes. Q. What satellite imagery data is there in the Water Management District on the Water Conservation Areas? A. I'd have to consult the inventory listing. Q. Where is this inventory listing located? A. On the computer system. Q. On which computer? A. DEC. Q. Does this inventory listing have a name? A. I don't recall the name. I'd have to look. Q. Who would know the name of this inventory listing on the satellite imagery? A. I would have to reference it. Q. Is there satellite imagery data on the DEC ** 18 on the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge? A. No. Q. Is there satellite imagery on the DEC on the Everglades Agricultural Area? A. No. Q. Is there satellite imagery on the DEC on Everglades National Park? A. No. Q. Is there satellite imagery data on any of the Water Management District's computers on Everglades National Park? A. No. Q. Is there satellite imagery data on any of the Water Management District's computers on the Everglades Agricultural Area? A. No. Q. Is there satellite imagery data on any of the Water Management District's computers on the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge? A. No. Q. You indicated that you can respond to the part of this inquiry on the use of remotely sensed data to prepare vegetation maps? A. I can. Q. How do you use, in the Water Management ** 19 District, remotely sensed data to prepare vegetation maps? A. We were developing a system. We do not use the data. Q. So you were developing a system, did you say? A. That's correct. Q. There is not presently a system in existence at the district? A. The system is being tested. Q. Can you describe the system that's being developed? A. The system is -- MS. STOLLMAN: To the extent that the system is already in place, you can describe it. I don't want you to speculate on what further might be developed. THE WITNESS: Okay. MS. STOLLMAN: You can describe what is being tested now. A. The system that is being developed will be a tool for our scientist and engineers to access and process, and interpret, and analyze, remotely sensed data in a digital format, which is integrated within the GIS. ** 20 Q. (By Ms. Nash) Do you know when this system will be ready to go into operation? A. I don't want to speculate. We don't know. MS. NASH: I have no further questions. MS. STOLLMAN: Do you want to take a break? MR. RICHARDS: I would like to take a break for 5 minutes. THE WITNESS: Okay. Let's do that. (Short break.) MS. STOLLMAN: Beverly, you asked a string of questions about the GIS system and work done on that. I think there was a little confusion on the part of the witness with respect to your questions. I'd like to give you an opportunity to explain what you mean by "work done on the GIS system with respect to each of those areas." MS. NASH: I believe my questions were whether -- Jim Olla testified that he was developing a GIS system on the SUN Microsystem, and what I was inquiring is to whether any GIS work had been done in the various areas I mentioned. ** 21 MS. STOLLMAN: Could you define what you mean by "work done"? MS. NASH: Whether -- I mean, GIS is a -- I mean, he certainly knows what GIS is, and whether any geographic information processing had been done in the areas I was inquiring about. MS. STOLLMAN: Do you want to run through each area and ask him if any GIS processing had been done? Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: She's got to define what GIS work is, and I'll also ask her to define what in her terms GIS means, because it means different things to different people. Q. (By Ms. Nash) Well, what does GIS mean to you, sir? A. The geographic information system is a computer system in which we will make our operational and management decisions upon the questions posed to it. At this point in time, the geographic information system is not functional in an operational form and it is not used for any operational decisions. At the present time, we are installing the ** 22 necessary computer hardware and software. We are testing this hardware and software. We are testing the linkages between the systems, and that comprises the work I do on the system. We do not perform, extract, or use it for any operational systems, because it is not accessible to the users. It is accessible to me, because I'm the developer; and any data I have on the system is transitory to test the functionality of the system. Q. What you're saying, then, is no work has been done in the specific areas that I mentioned as the -- A. No. The work that's been done on the system is to make sure it works. When we have all the components in and we can release it to the staff, then, we -- we expect operational decisions to be made based upon it. But at this point in time, we have just installed some hardware and software and tested their operability to each other -- the way they talk to each other. When we get done testing the system, then, we will release it to the staff for use in their specific areas, and in those areas to which you had ** 23 asked me questions about. But until the system is built -- I mean, it's my job to build it, we're going to make sure it's right before we use it, okay? Q. Did you mention to me, when I asked, the hardware that you're utilizing to develop the system? A. Uh-huh. Q. And did you mention all the software that you're utilizing to develop the system? A. Uh-huh. That's correct. MS. NASH: I have nothing further. THE WITNESS: I don't want to leave any misunderstanding, okay? CROSS-EXAMINATION QUESTION BY MR. RICHARDS: Q. My name is Joe Richards. I represent the cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston. A. Okay. Q. Do you have a bachelor's degree? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is that in? A. I have a bachelor's degree in geography ** 24 and computer science. Q. And besides developing this GIS system, what other projects have you worked on since you started work for the district? A. None. Q. Development of this system comprises 100 percent of your time? A. Yes. With the exception of all the meetings like this. Q. When you were describing the GIS system on the SUN, you said there would be data on the spatial characteristics of the Water Management District. Do you know what these characteristics are? A. All the elements of the earth that comprise the district. For example, the soils, the vegetation, the temperature, any information which we can gather which will help us make better decisions about a specific area. Q. When do you expect this system to be operable. MS. STOLLMAN: I believe that's been asked and answered by Ms. Nash. A. It's undetermined. MS. STOLLMAN: I don't want you to ** 25 speculate. A. Okay. I won't speculate. Q. (By Mr. Richards) Does the Water Management District possess any land sat photography that you're aware of? A. Yes. Q. Do you know what areas that photography is? A. Yes. MS. STOLLMAN: Are you asking about photography that's contained on the computer systems? MR. RICHARDS: Yes. A. There is no data on the system. Q. (By Mr. Richards) Data that will be used in the system? A. Yes. Q. Could you elaborate on the areas of photography? A. The entire 16-county district. Q. Do you know the dates of these images? A. I will have to reference them. Q. Where is this information located? A. The reference document is on the system itself. It's indexed to the data the district ** 26 owns. Q. It's indexed on a computer? A. Yes, it's a computer file. Q. Which computer? A. I believe it's in the PC. I made a mistake earlier. It's not on the DEC. It's on my PC. Q. Does that file have a name? A. I would have to look. It's a Word Perfect file. I just -- I would have to look. If I see it, I'd know what it was. I just don't recall. Q. Are these recent images in the last two years? A. Some have been taken in the last two years, but again, I would have to reference the document for the specific area you'd have in mind. Q. Do you know the dates of images of the Water Conservation Areas? A. I would want to refer to the document, that way I can be more precise. Q. Do you have images of within the last two years of the conservation areas? A. I want to refer to the documents. I'm not trying to not answer your question, but I just -- there is 16 counties and there is a lot of imagery, ** 27 and I would just have to look. Q. Do you know what version of land sat photography these images are? A. Yes. Q. Which version is that? A. Thematic mapper. Q. Has this land sat photography been put to use by anyone at the district? MS. STOLLMAN: You can answer within the context of the computer system -- if anyone has used the photography on the computer system. A. I have used the photography on the system. Q. (By Mr. Richards) For what purpose? A. Operational testing of the system. Q. Do you know of any other use of this data? A. I have no knowledge of other people using the data other than myself. Q. Does the district possess any spot satellite imagery? A. Yes. Q. Do you know of what areas within the district? A. The entire district. Q. Do you know the time frames of these images? ** 28 A. It's on the document. Q. It's in the same index? A. Right. I have all satellite data indexed in that document. Q. What information would I be able to obtain from your index? A. Row & Column of Imagery, date of acquisition, type of media stored on. Q. Pardon me? A. Row & Column of Imagery, date of acquisition, type of media it's stored on, sensor type. Q. Do you know the approximate date of these images? MS. STOLLMAN: I believe that's been asked and answered. MR. RICHARDS: I don't think I asked it in reference to spot. A. It's on the inventory list. I'd have to look. Q. (By Mr. Richards) Has the spot imagery been used for any purpose other than testing the system? A. No. Q. Do you know whether anyone at the district ** 29 who has requested to use this spot imagery? A. It has been requested. I have not granted it. Q. Who requested it? A. I don't know the individual's name. There have been numerous requests. Q. Is this spot imagery raw or filtered? A. We purchase raw data. We subsequently process it into a georeferenced form to fit our coordinate systems within the GIS. At that level, we do not process any further at this time. Q. For the process that has taken place, could you explain that? A. When this imagery is received from spot, it contains errors of geometric correction. For example, things aren't the way they are on the earth's surface, because of distortions in the data. These are distortions caused by satellite rotation, earth rotations, perpetrations of orbit, et cetera. We correct this to have the data georeferenced to our coordinate systems that would allow it to be utilized within the GIS. Q. Is there a program used to do this processing? A. Yes. ** 30 Q. What is that program? A. ERDAS. Q. It hasn't been processed any further than these corrections? A. No. We took out that correction to make it a usable running system. Q. Is the land sat photography also raw data? A. Yes. Q. And has that been processed in any way? A. No. This has not been processed. Q. Are you aware of any ground truthing efforts in regard to this satellite imagery? A. Could you define the efforts you're asking about, please? Q. Verifying what you see in the image as to what's actually on the ground. A. No. Q. It has not been done? A. No. We have not performed any analysis of the imagery. Q. The index -- the information contained on there, that would apply to both the land sat and the spot imagery? A. That's correct. Q. Has the district hired any consultants or ** 31 subcontractors to utilize the satellite imagery? A. The imagery the district owns? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. Do you know whether this imagery will be used to map vegetation in the Water Conservation Areas? A. It hasn't been determined what uses the imagery will be used for. Q. When you mentioned this process to correct the geometric distortions, are there certain variables used in this process? A. Yes. Q. What are those variables? A. Root mean square error. Ground control points. Q. Any others? A. That's it, yeah. Q. In reference to the testing of the operation of the system, have you reached any conclusions as to the viability of the system? A. The system will be an excellent tool for the district staff and management to use. Q. Any other conclusions? MS. STOLLMAN: Could you be more ** 32 specific? Q. (By Mr. Richards) Have you reached, just in general, any conclusions from your testing? MS. STOLLMAN: I don't want you to -- unless you have a specific question. Q. (By Mr. Richards) Have you reached any conclusions? A. Yes. Q. What are those conclusions? A. I've already stated them. Q. That's it? A. The system will be used by the individuals. How the individuals see the system is a matter of their prerogative. I can only build the system and give them the tools. What they do with the tools is something I have no control over. Q. Do the tools work? A. I hope so, yes. The ones we have do. Q. Are you aware of whether this satellite imagery is copyrighted? A. Yes, it is. Q. Do you do any work with aerial photography? A. Yes. Q. What use do you make of aerial ** 33 photography? MS. STOLLMAN: Again, this is limited to what use you make of it on the computer system. A. The computer systems don't use aerial photography. We use aerial photography to verify that the imagery is being positioned correctly. Q. (By Mr. Richards) The satellite imagery? A. Yes. Q. Any other uses? A. Not at this point in time. Q. Do you know the extent of this aerial photography, the locations of the images? A. No, I do not. That's done in many areas of the district. I don't know the extent of it. We do -- to the extent of it I do use is in the form of ortho photo quad maps, which are available to me and to all other people of the district. Specific aerial photos, I do not use because they have limited use to me. Q. Who developed these photo quad maps? A. Mark Heard. Q. Do you know what division he is in? A. They are contracted. Q. Pardon me? A. They were contracted. We had contracted ** 34 this service several years ago. Q. Do you know what year? A. 1984. Q. Those images were of the entire district? MS. STOLLMAN: I would object to these detailed questions on the photographs. He's already testified that they are not used on the computer system. They have limited purpose. He's told you what that is. You discussed this with other witnesses previously, and I don't think it's relevant here. Q. (By Mr. Richards) Has the district developed a program or purchased a program that will be used to analyze the satellite imagery? A. Yes. Q. Do you know what that program is? A. ERDAS. Q. Are there any others? A. Yes. Q. What? A. I squared S, that system is being obsoleted in favor of ERDAS. Q. Has this program I squared S been used to analyze photography in the past? A. I do not use the system. ** 35 Q. Do you know who does? A. Yes. Q. Who? A. Environmental sciences division. Q. Do you know any individuals? A. I'm not aware -- I don't know exactly who uses it there. Q. Are you doing any work, GIS work to study the effects of hydroperiod in the wetlands? A. No. Q. Do you know of anyone at the district who is? A. No. MR. RICHARDS: I have no further questions. Thank you. (The deposition was concluded at 3:15 o'clock p.m.)