439 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 88-1886-CIV (Hoeveler) 3 4 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) 5 Plaintiff, ) v. ) 6 ) SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT ) 7 DISTRICT, et al., ) Defendants. ) 8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x 9 100 Southeast 2nd Street Miami, Florida 10 February 5, 1991 9:05 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. 11 12 13 CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF RONALD DEAN JONES 14 15 16 17 Taken before RICHARD BURSKY, 18 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public, 19 pursuant to Subpoena issued in the above cause. 20 - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 440 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF 4 OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 5 155 South Miami Avenue, Suite 600 Miami, Florida 33130 6 BY: SUZAN HILL PONZOLI, Assistant United States Attorney 7 8 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT 9 SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM 10 1440 New York Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005-2107 11 BY: JERRY JACKSON, ESQ. JOHN A. AMODEO, ESQ. 12 13 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION 14 ROBERT G. GOUGH, ESQ. 15 Assistant General Counsel Twin Towers Office Building 16 2600 Blairstone Road Tallahassee, Florida 32301 17 18 ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS CITY OF BELLE GLADE AND CITY OF CLEWISTON 19 PEEPLES, EARL & BLANK 20 One Biscayne Tower, Suite 3636 Two South Biscayne Boulevard 21 Miami, Florida 33131 BY: DOUGLAS M. WYCKOFF, ESQ. 22 23 24 25 441 1 2 PRESENT: _______ 3 J. WENDELL GILLIAM JIM GRACE 4 PAUL LARSEN DAVID R. SWIFT 5 VIVIAN DIAZ 6 INDEX Witness Direct 7 RONALD DEAN JONES By Mr. Jackson: 442 8 9 EXHIBITS 10 NUMBER (RJ) PAGE 23 442 11 24 446 25 451 12 26 455 27 457 13 28 460 29 463 14 30 465 31 467 15 32 471 33 473 16 34 474 35 476 17 36 479 37 485 18 38 488 39 489 19 40 491 20 (MS) 14 481 21 22 23 24 25 442 1 RONALD JONES, resumed. 2 THE COURT REPORTER: I remind you, you are 3 still under oath, Dr. Jones. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 6 BY MR. JACKSON: 7 Q. Good morning, Dr. Jones. 8 A. Good morning. 9 Q. At the end of the second day of this 10 deposition you were kind enough to go through our 11 copy of the documents in from your office and 12 selected some documents that had data and other types 13 of information on them. I would like to go through 14 some of those documents with you and ask you if you 15 can describe them for us so we can get them in the 16 record too as well. 17 MR. JACKSON: I propose we just continue 18 numbering them with the prefix RJ and start at the 19 next number which should be RJ 23, unless they have 20 been introduced in previous depositions. 21 So I would like to ask the court reporter 22 to mark this next document as RJ 23, please, and show 23 it to the witness. 24 (Exhibit RJ 23 was marked for 25 identification) 443 1 (Pause) 2 Q. Dr. Jones, I believe this document may 3 relate to a couple of other documents that are 4 already exhibits and to me they seem to relate to 17 5 and 16. 6 A. Yes. I was looking for RJ 16. I believe 7 that this document here, RJ 23, is the most complete 8 graphic of the data set represented in RJ 16. It has 9 all of the points where I had single point values 10 incorporated into it. 11 I believe the previous exhibit, RJ 17, did 12 not include the points where I had only single values 13 for the alkaline phosphatase. 14 Q. What does it mean, what do you mean by the 15 phrase single point values? 16 A. Well, if you look at RJ 16 and you go down 17 the column that is labeled AP, alkaline phosphatase, 18 you see that there are several points where I have in 19 parentheses where it is indicated written single 20 point, where it indicates one of the replicates was 21 off. And I did not include those on RJ 17 in the 22 phosphatase line but I did in this line. 23 Q. What does it mean for one of the 24 replicates to be off? 25 A. Very often when we are doing this in the 444 1 laboratory, you will collect bottles of these things 2 out in the field and when you bring it back to the 3 laboratory and put it into the instrument sometimes 4 you will have a sample that contained more than, an 5 anomalous sampling, you collected a sampling and 6 sucked in some algae or something like that and have 7 a value very high or very low, it doesn't fit into 8 the thing. 9 Since I was doing duplicate since it says 10 single point duplicate bottles here, that would mean 11 there was one bottle outside of what I would have 12 expected to be normal for that range, either very 13 very high reading or low reading. For some reason it 14 was discarded. 15 Q. And I just noticed on RJ 16, I think I 16 forgot to ask you about a couple of values that are 17 listed on RJ 16. That is in the second column. It 18 looks like it says AP Canal E and AP Canal W, do you 19 see where I am referring to? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Can you tell me what those two numbers 22 mean? 23 A. That is the alkaline phosphatase in the 24 canal in the eastern boundary and alkaline 25 phosphatase in the canal in the western boundary and 445 1 those would be the values for the canal water. 2 Q. And these were the values that you 3 reported in your declaration in paragraphs 18 and 19. 4 I believe your declaration is RJ 1, the last sentence 5 of 18. 6 A. I do not believe that is correct. I have 7 done alkaline phosphatase in the canals at other 8 times, collected water out there, and if I am not 9 mistaken this was from a data set collected at a 10 later date. I am not entirely certain about that. 11 Q. When you say this, are you referring to 12 the numbers that you report in RJ 1 or in RJ 16? 13 A. In RJ 16, I think those were collected at 14 a later date. I have done prior to the numbers 15 reported in RJ 16, prior to this I had done, just 16 where I had done the canal water alone. 17 Q. With respect to the RJ 17, which if I 18 understood your testimony correctly omits the single 19 point alkaline phosphatase activity measurements. 20 (Pause) 21 A. Yes, I believe that's correct. We have to 22 go back and look and compare the distances listed 23 over here on KM on RJ 16 with those distances that 24 are missing in the comparison. My understanding is 25 that is essentially what the only difference would 446 1 be. 2 Q. And the data points primarily seem to be 3 missing between the 7 kilometer and, say, the 11 4 kilometer point on RJ 17 and the 15 kilometer and, 5 say, the 22 kilometer point, you have just drawn a 6 straight line to connect those two points. What I am 7 getting at, it doesn't make any difference with 8 respect to your conclusions about this alkaline 9 phosphatase data that those points are omitted from 10 RJ 17? 11 A. That is essentially, I would agree with 12 that. 13 If you look at the points that are omitted 14 on this figure you will see that they really -- 15 obviously it is not a straight line in between them 16 but it is not a significant peak or valley in any of 17 those places. 18 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 19 would like to ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 20 24. 21 (Exhibit RJ 24 was marked for 22 identification) 23 (Pause) 24 A. I know what these values -- I mean, this 25 is a total phosphorus. It says Loxahatchee samples 447 1 10-17-90 total PO4. I would assume these are the 2 values from the water column but I don't think this 3 is a complete set of data from that date. And I 4 don't really recognize what it is right offhand. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q. What about this indicates this is not a 7 complete set of data from this date? 8 A. I have 23, 24, 25, 26 in the sample ID 9 numbers here, and it seems to me that those probably 10 would have been the station numbers indicating that 11 we've got starting at station 23 going on through 12 station 35 plus the canal water, but not the first 23 13 stations or first 22 stations. 14 Q. And the station numbers that you are 15 referring to are reflected on RJ 16? 16 A. I don't believe so. I can't tie this with 17 RJ 16. 18 Q. Just that there are not 22 stations, 1 19 through 22, listed on RJ 24, is that what you are 20 saying? 21 A. Yes. This doesn't appear to be a complete 22 data set here and I don't understand why it wouldn't 23 be. 24 A. The only thing I can think, when you were 25 stapling this together, since it had a sequence 448 1 number of 1 through whatever here, that this is not 2 complete. 3 Q. I believe you just performed some 4 calculations on a calculator with respect to this 5 document. Could you tell me what you calculated? 6 A. I just converted the values in micromolar 7 to parts per billion so I could get an idea of what 8 this was. Sometimes that helps me to. 9 Q. Which values are the micromolar values on 10 RJ 24? 11 A. The column labeled Calculated Value and 12 then our numbers where we have averaged those in, the 13 first example would be an average of 4, which is .32. 14 Q. What was the calculation that you had 15 performed for .32 to make a conversion? 16 A. Multiply it by 31 and it gives you parts 17 per billion. 18 Q. Given that this may be incomplete, did you 19 say that you are able to recognize what sampling 20 event this reflects? 21 A. I don't believe -- I read off what it says 22 on the top and I would have to say that represents 23 what it is. I believe this would be total phosphorus 24 in the water column but I'm not entirely certain on 25 that. It has to be total phosphorus in the water 449 1 column. 2 Q. Is this your handwriting at the top of RJ 3 24? 4 A. No, it is not. 5 Q. And you assume this is from the Refuge 6 because of the LOX at the top? 7 A. Yes, and because of the bottom where it 8 says Canal E, samples 108, starting at 108 and 9 samples starting at 113 say Canal E and Canal W and 10 that would have been indicative of Loxahatchee, in 11 addition the number of samples that, having 35 12 stations, that would be the only place that I ever 13 did that. 14 Q. For sample ID 24, the first value -- the 15 first -- maybe we should use the numbers in the 16 left-hand column. What do the numbers in the 17 left-hand column mean, can you tell, the far 18 left-hand column? 19 A. Starting, the number? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Where it says number, that is simply a 22 sequence number, which peak. 23 Q. Using the sequence No. 21, if you go all 24 the way across to the right, the concentration is 25 stricken through 0 point, looks like 12. Do you know 450 1 why that is stricken through? 2 A. It was a bad sample. 3 Q. How can you tell that, because the number 4 is so different? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So it is what would be called an out liar? 7 A. It was an out liar, yes. 8 Q. Did you make that decision to strike 9 through that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was a statistical analysis performed? 12 A. No. 13 Q. At the end of the document there are some 14 numbers, intercept zero correlation, CO E F and 15 linear CO E F. Do you know what that means 16 A. Yes I do. 17 Q. Could you explain that to me, please? 18 A. That indicates that a line that was drawn 19 in the data for calculating the standard curve had an 20 inter September of zero, that its correlation 21 coefficient, R value was .9935, et cetera, and if you 22 took the linear coefficient as one of the 23 coefficients in the line saying that, I believe, if 24 you use 269.25 and divide that into the peak height, 25 that that would give you a value of 1. 451 1 But I would have to go back and do that 2 calculation just to besure. 3 Q. Where is the peak height on this document? 4 A. It is the fifth column from the left and 5 it is labeled Height. 6 Q. Labeled Height? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 9 hand you another document which will be labeled RJ 25 10 and ask you if you can identify this document. 11 (Exhibit RJ 25 was marked for 12 identification) 13 (Pause) 14 A. I believe these are the Loxahatchee 15 transect samples that are represented in RJ 16 as a 16 compilation. 17 BY MR. JACKSON: 18 Q. Can you tell whether or not the date at 19 the top, it says August 9, 1989, is that the date on 20 which the samples were collected, do you know? 21 A. I don't know. I doubt that, but it could 22 be. It is more likely to represent the date that the 23 analyzer was operating. 24 Q. And I take it on RJ 25 the far right-hand 25 column that is printed on this document that is 452 1 labeled PO4 concentration is, is that parts per 2 million of total phosphorus in the soil sediments? 3 A. It is listed as micrograms of phosphorus 4 per gram which I believe converts to parts per 5 million. 6 Q. And the sample sites in the far left-hand 7 column on RJ 25, how do these correspond to the 8 station numbers that are listed in RJ 16? 9 A. I believe that they are the same, they 10 would be the number following the dash, L2-1 would 11 represent station 1, I believe on RJ 16. 12 Q. So the L2 in the sample site column is 13 just a prefix? 14 A. It stands for Loxahatchee second transect. 15 Q. There are apparently six samples taken at 16 station 1 according to RJ 25, is that correct? 17 A. I have eight -- station 2-1. 18 Q. You have eight? 19 A. I have eight, there is also two 1S 20 samples. 21 Q. What are the 1S samples? 22 A. I believe, if you remember when we 23 described these things last week or whenever, that I 24 had described S versus E sampling locations and these 25 would be the same notation here, except for that I 453 1 don't think we put Es -- in other words, we didn't go 2 1E, it was just 1 nothing, then 1S and sometimes that 3 designation was used. 4 Q. The S was sawgrass? 5 A. Yes. And the ones without anything would 6 have been the open areas. 7 Q. Is this your handwriting next to the far 8 right-hand column, these numbers? 9 A. In the brackets and everything? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. I believe it is. 12 Q. What are these numbers written in this 13 hand next to the brackets? 14 A. That would be the averages for the 15 brackets. 16 Q. So it looks like you or someone averaged 17 the first six station 1 sites or the station 1 18 Eleocharis or open water sites, is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And you arrived at an average of 1898, 21 from those numbers? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And you or someone else averaged the two 24 sawgrass sites and got 2863 for those? 25 A. The two S sites, I don't know if I want to 454 1 call those sawgrass at that point. 2 Q. Okay, the two S sites. 3 How did the two numbers 1898 and 2863 lead 4 to what appears to be the final number to the far 5 right of 2380? 6 A. I believe that they are both averaged 7 together. This was after a discussion with Doren to 8 decide on how he was going to separate the sites out 9 both tangentially, if you will, and we decided to 10 combine them at that point and give them one value. 11 Q. And that would also be true for the number 12 1435 which seems to correspond to station 2? 13 A. I would assume so. I would have to go 14 back and divide the numbers. 15 Q. Then on the second page of RJ 25, some 16 different numbers are appearing now in the right, 17 what is now the far right-hand column for station 6, 18 it looks to me it says CA 1-14 and then I guess the 19 subscript of an O or a zero. Do you see what I am 20 talking about on the second page? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you tell me what that means? 23 A. Yes, I can. 24 Q. They are? 25 A. They are Bob Doren's designation for what 455 1 he was calling the sites for the purposes of his 2 analyses. I did not use them in any fashion, I just 3 wrote them down so that when he called me up and 4 asked me for what the value was at that particular 5 point, I could give it to him. 6 Q. Then on the last page of RJ 25 for station 7 31, one of the total phosphorus concentration values 8 is stricken through again. Would this be another one 9 of the outlyers that we discussed before? 10 A. Yes, I believe it is. 11 Q. I am going to hand you another document 12 which I am going to ask the court reporter to mark as 13 RJ 26 and ask if you can identify it. 14 (Exhibit RJ 26 was marked for 15 identification) 16 (Pause) 17 A. I believe this represents the last set of 18 samples that are represented on RJ 25 and all of the 19 samples that were -- that I conducted on the transect 20 north of L2, if you will, in Loxahatchee. 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q. It appears to me that RJ 26 is a 23 continuation of RJ 25. 24 A. Yes, that is correct. 25 Q. And it says at the top of the first page 456 1 of RJ 26 Lox 2 and Lox 1 Everglades Samples. 2 A. Yes, it does. 3 Q. And Lox 1 is what we have been calling the 4 northern transects in the Refuge? 5 A. It would appear so. 6 Q. Otherwise this is the same type of 7 document that we discussed in RJ 25, the values are 8 similarly collected, being the same things? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I realize the numbers are different but 11 just a continuation? 12 A. Just a continuation. 13 Q. Could you look at the last page of RJ 26, 14 please. Sample sites stop using numbers and now 15 there are a number of sample sites labeled LVS and a 16 number labeled looks like CLVS. Can you tell me what 17 those are? 18 A. Yes, those are the standards that we run, 19 one of them would be the National Bureau of Standards 20 orchard leaves and the other one would be, I am not 21 real sure whether it is sawgrass or pond apple, 22 leaves that we collected and that we routinely run to 23 check up on the efficiency of the technique. 24 Q. I am sorry, you are analyzing leaves to 25 check up on the efficiency of the technique for 457 1 analyzing soil? 2 A. The standard for total phosphorus has been 3 designated by the National Bureau of Standards to be 4 orchard leaves. I don't know for sure what they are 5 using for their leaves now but that is just 6 designated as being the standard for total 7 phosphorus. 8 Q. You compared this standard with the 9 results you get from the soil samples to determine 10 whether or not your equipment is performing 11 accurately? 12 A. No, we use these values to compare with 13 the values we got from the National Bureau of 14 Standards to determine whether we get the same values 15 as they have. 16 Q. Does it have anything to do with 17 calibrating your equipment? 18 A. No. 19 MR. JACKSON: I am going to ask the court 20 reporter to mark and hand you a document to be 21 labeled as RJ 27. 22 (Exhibit RJ 27 was marked for 23 identification) 24 (Pause) 25 BY MR. JACKSON: 458 1 Q. I ask you if you can identify this. 2 A. I recognize what it is. This represents 3 total nitrogen and carbon analysis of I believe soils 4 collected along the, I believe the Everglades 5 National Park transect that we have been designating 6 as south of S-12C, but I am not entirely certain of 7 that. 8 Q. The far right-hand column that is printed 9 on RJ 27 is headed Total C, is that correct? Do you 10 see where I am? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what is the unit of measure of total C 13 that is reported here? 14 A. I believe that's milligrams of carbon per 15 gram. 16 Q. Then next to it in handwriting someone has 17 put a dash with an X beneath it to head the next 18 column. Do you know what that means? 19 A. It is the symbol or mean, X bar. 20 Q. The numbers below that symbol, do you know 21 what those are? 22 A. I believe they would be the average of the 23 two samples designated by the bracket or the 24 triangle. 25 Q. For carbon in milligrams per gram? 459 1 A. I believe that's correct. 2 Q. In the far right hand handwritten column, 3 can you tell what that heading is, what appears to be 4 a heading? 5 A. I believe it says Micrograms Phosphorus 6 Per Gram of Carbon. 7 Q. And that's what the numbers would be below 8 that symbol on this document? 9 A. Here. 10 Q. 306 would be micrograms of phosphorus per 11 gram of carbon? 12 A. I am not entirely certain of that. It 13 might be micrograms of phosphorus divided by gram of 14 carbon, it might be the ratio -- we would have to 15 look at the values to see how they were derived. 16 Q. What was the purpose for collecting this 17 data? 18 A. To look at the carbon and nitrogen content 19 in the soils, I think. 20 Q. Why were you interested in looking at 21 that? 22 A. Just to get a rough idea of what the 23 carbon and nitrogen content in the soils were. 24 Q. If you could look at the third page of 25 this document, please. I realize it is not numbered. 460 1 Sample site No. 3S, the milligrams of phosphorus 2 slash grams of carbon value is 3425 and it has an 3 asterisk next to it, do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you know why that number has an 6 asterisk next to it? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. What about the fourth page, there is a 9 line that has been drawn between the sample site 16S 10 and sample site 17S. Do you know why that line is 11 there? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 A. That may not be a line. These sheets may 14 have been -- that may have represented where there 15 was a break in the paper on the printer and we stuck 16 two sheets together, I don't know. 17 Q. To you it has no significance? 18 A. No. I don't know what it is. 19 Q. I am going to hand you a document and ask 20 the court reporter to mark it as RJ 28 and ask you if 21 you can identify it. 22 (Exhibit RJ 28 was marked for 23 identification) 24 (Pause) 25 A. I believe this represents the carbon and 461 1 nitrogen data from the plant samples that are 2 partially represented in RJ 20. 3 Q. What are the numbers at the top where it 4 says Blank Areas CO NO and then underneath 1, 2, 3, 4 5 and then sort of a separate type of columns that 6 don't quite correspond with the rest of it, can you 7 explain what that is? 8 A. This entire area? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Those are the numbers put into the 11 spreadsheet to form a standard curve, if you will or 12 standard calculation to calculate the values of total 13 nitrogen and total carbon. I believe those are the 14 standards we use for Atropine. 15 Q. Where do those numbers come from, how are 16 they derived? 17 A. Which numbers? 18 Q. The ones you just described. 19 A. There are several types of numbers up 20 here. 21 The numbers after standard Atropine 22 percent nitrogen, percent carbon, those are fixed 23 values for that particular compound for Atropine. 24 The blank areas are determined as to what 25 a sample blank is, if you take the tin cup and burn 462 1 it alone in the machine, what it gave you as a peak 2 height, was zero for this. 3 And then in the columns labeled on the far 4 left it says 1, 2, 3, 4, there is a column that says 5 dry weight in micrograms, that would be the weight of 6 the individual sample and then there would be the 7 areas for the nitrogen and carbon and the columns 8 labeled KN, KC and average KN and average KC would be 9 calculations from those numbers. 10 Q. On the second page of this document that 11 has been marked as RJ 28, and you referred to the 12 exhibit that already has been marked as RJ 20, on RJ 13 20 there seems to be a sort of legend, if you will, 14 that explains what the numbers in the sample site 15 column mean. It shows that the sample site, sample 16 number and bag number are labeled in the sample site 17 column on RJ 20, is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would that same explanation seem to apply 20 to the second, third and fourth page of RJ 28? 21 A. I believe it does. These were again not 22 samples that were collected by me or for me. This 23 was an analysis that I had provided to the Park 24 botanist Sternberg, I believe. 25 Q. You just performed these samplings in your 463 1 laboratory and provided the numbers to the Park, is 2 that correct? 3 A. I performed the analyses in my laboratory. 4 They performed the sampling. 5 Q. Do you know why they performed the 6 sampling? 7 A. I would have to go back. Generally it was 8 a sampling of different species of plants. I don't 9 even know what was contained in the bags now without 10 having the key, if you will, in front of me. 11 Q. And by that you mean what species of plant 12 was contained in the bag? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 15 will ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 29. 16 (Exhibit RJ 29 was marked for 17 identification) 18 BY MR. JACKSON: 19 Q. I ask you if you can identify it. 20 (Pause) 21 A. I believe this would be a portion of that 22 key that I just explained. 23 Q. Which key? 24 A. The one on RJ 20. Sorry. 25 Q. Are these your notes? 464 1 A. No, they are not. 2 Q. Do you know whose they are? 3 A. I would assume that they are John 4 Sternberg's, the name at the top of the page, but I 5 don't know. 6 Q. And it is possible you are guessing that 7 the site numbers that are reported on RJ 29 would 8 correspond to the site numbers that are listed on RJ 9 20 and RJ 28? 10 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 11 question. 12 A. I believe that that is a correct 13 assumption, I am not speculating on that. 14 Q. Do you know when these samples were taken, 15 these tissue samples? 16 A. Sometime prior to the 26th of January 17 1989, I would assume. 18 Q. And these species that are listed on RJ 19 29, do you recognize the common names for the 20 species? 21 A. Some of them. 22 Q. Do you recognize what the common name is 23 for, looks likes cladium jamaicanse? 24 A. That's sawgrass. 25 Q. That is sawgrass. 465 1 And then the Typho Latifolia? 2 A. That is cattail. 3 Q. I am going to hand the court reporter a 4 document and ask him to mark it as RJ 30 and hand it 5 to you and ask you if you can identify it. 6 (Exhibit RJ 30 was marked for 7 identification) 8 (Pause) 9 A. Offhand, I don't recognize this. 10 BY MR. JACKSON: 11 Q. Can you identify what any of the 12 information is that is reported on this document? 13 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 14 A. Yes, I can, certain portions of it. 15 Some of the labeling in the sample site 16 makes some sense. This may be water samples, again I 17 have to go and convert it from Water Conservation 18 Area 2A total phosphorus. 19 (Pause) 20 A. These very well may represent water 21 samples collected along the Water Conservation Area 22 2A transect listed on RJ 3. 23 Q. So for example, the sample site S-10D may 24 refer to that structure? 25 A. I don't know that there is S-10D on here, 466 1 S-10Y. 2 Q. S-10C? 3 A. Yes, that would be my assumption. 4 Q. Did you take these water samples, do you 5 know? 6 A. Yes, I would have collected them. 7 Q. And analyzed them in your lab? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you mentioned a conversion, I take it 10 that was with respect to the far right-hand column? 11 A. Yes, that's why I am having trouble 12 recognizing these. I am getting so used to talking 13 about this in parts per billion I am having trouble 14 of going back to my standard notion of micromolar. 15 Q. So that was the one we referred to at the 16 beginning of this morning? 17 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 18 Q. Where you multiplied it by 31? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Would it be safe to assume that the sample 21 site labeled 2A-11 would be at the far end of the 22 transect in Water Conservation Area 2A that is 23 indicated in Exhibit RJ 3? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 25 question. 467 1 A. I would have to see the rest of the data 2 that goes with that to be sure about that but I would 3 think that that would be very close to the end or at 4 least 11 sites in from S-10C. 5 Q. What I am trying to get at is whether or 6 not it is possible that this transect water sampling 7 event contains additional sample sites that are 8 further south along the transect than the 2A-11 site. 9 A. I can't tell from looking at this. 10 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 11 hand you the next document and mark it as RJ 31. 12 I ask you if you can identify it. 13 (Exhibit RJ 31 was marked for 14 identification) 15 (Pause) 16 A. I believe this represents data from 17 analyses performed when Dan Scheidt and I originally 18 drove down to the area around the S-12s and walked 19 into Everglades National Park and collected some 20 samples along the canal and out into the marsh at 21 that time. 22 BY MR. JACKSON: 23 Q. Would this be the reconnaisance transect 24 for S-12C? 25 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 468 1 question. 2 A. I don't believe that that's what we were 3 referring to as the reconnaissance transect. 4 Q. Would this have been before the 5 reconnaissance transect was run? 6 A. It would have been around the same time, I 7 believe. 8 Q. What is being sampled here, the soil? 9 A. I think that depends on the analyses you 10 are looking at. 11 Page 3 of RJ 31 would probably represent 12 soil samples, carbon and nitrogen content, and the 13 last page, which is labeled total phosphorus in 14 sediments would represent soil samples, total 15 phosphorus. 16 Q. What about the first page, the reactive 17 phosphorus? 18 A. I believe that would be in the water. 19 Q. And can you identify the sample sites from 20 this document? 21 A. Roughly. 22 Q. Can you tell me what the sample site Can 23 is? 24 A. I believe that would be the Tamiami Canal, 25 but I am not sure about that. 469 1 Q. What about the site that is marked 20, I 2 can't tell what the symbol is between, and then SW? 3 Maybe that is an M? 4 A. It is meters but I don't know what -- I'm 5 not really sure what SW is designating. 6 Q. So if it means 20 meters from something 7 you don't know what it is 20 meters away from? 8 A. I assume it is 20 meters away from the 9 road or the edge of the willow zone but I am not 10 sure. 11 Q. What about the sample site that is marked 12 edge? 13 A. That would be the edge of the, wherever we 14 walked in, which I believe would probably be one of 15 the culverts, that that edge would designate the area 16 where the pond apple and willow broke into a more 17 open community for either cattails or sawgrass. 18 Q. Do you know in the next one, it says 150 19 MS, do you know what the S means there? 20 A. I believe that would have been an early 21 designation of like the sawgrass sites. 22 Q. What about the P in the next one, 300 M? 23 A. I believe we found a lot of Panicum there 24 and I believe that very well might have been in the 25 open areas. 470 1 Q. And the number of meters may indicate the 2 distance from the edge of the road? 3 A. Crude estimate of the distance from the 4 edge of the road. 5 Q. US 41? 6 A. Probably more likely to represent distance 7 from the old Tamiami Trail, remnant of the road 8 there. 9 Q. Further down it goes to T2 Can, and if 10 that means canal, why is there a T1 and T2 canal 11 site? Can you tell what that means? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 13 A. Let me take a moment. 14 Q. Sure. 15 (Pause) 16 A. I am not real certain what the T1, T2 and 17 T3 are. I believe they designate different culverts 18 across the Tamiami, the old Tamiami Trail. But I 19 don't have any idea right now where they are in 20 location. Maybe Dan Scheidt would be able to tell 21 us. 22 Q. In addition, the Can is sometimes preceded 23 by a number with a T in front of it and sometimes it 24 is preceded by just a number, like there is T2 Can 25 followed by 5 Can. Can you tell us the difference 471 1 between T2 Can or 5 Can, does that designate any 2 difference? 3 A. It must be. 4 Q. Then the last three sample sites on that 5 column appear to refer to the water control 6 structures. 7 A. That would be correct. 8 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 9 will ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 32 and ask 10 if you can identify it. 11 (Exhibit RJ 32 was marked for 12 identification) 13 (Pause) 14 A. Offhand, I don't recognize this to be 15 anything more than some total phosphorus in some 16 sediments. I don't know what the sample site 17 designations are, offhand, seeing them out of context 18 like this. 19 Q. So I take it you don't know why the sample 20 sites sometimes have an X after them and sometimes 21 don't? 22 A. I don't know what the sample sites are 23 here so that would be correct. 24 Q. But this appears to be total phosphorus 25 concentrations in sediments? 472 1 A. In soils, yes. 2 Q. Just to make sure I can read this, because 3 it is similar to some of the other sets of data that 4 have been produced from your office, to look at what 5 has been labeled as sample site 004 for example, 6 there are two, apparently two sets of samples were 7 taken there, and if you move across to the right 8 there are two numbers under P K H G T, is that 9 correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And then apparently an average is 12 calculated from those two numbers in the next column? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And then the total phosphorus 15 concentrations are reflected in the last column to 16 the right? 17 A. That appears -- 18 Q. Of 547? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And then the same thing is repeated again 21 for 004 which I take it is two more samples from the 22 same site, you would assume? 23 A. I would assume that's correct. 24 Q. And then the total phosphorus 25 concentration is 548 apparently? 473 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So 547 and 548 correspond to sample site 4 3 on this exhibit, is that correct? 4 A. Right. If you realize though, remember, I 5 pointed out sample site doesn't necessarily mean 6 that, this is the generic spreadsheet. 7 Q. That would be true for the rest of the 8 sample sites on this exhibit, presumably? 9 A. Presumably. 10 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 11 hand you another document marked as RJ 33 and ask if 12 you can identify it. 13 (Exhibit RJ 33 was marked for 14 identification) 15 A. It appears to be almost identical to RJ 16 33, the only difference that I can see is the 17 difference in the value for the standards. It might 18 represent an additional run using these same samples, 19 another analysis. 20 BY MR. JACKSON: 21 Q. RJ 32 and 33 seem to be almost identical, 22 is that what you said? 23 A. Giving it once down the columns comparing 24 the numbers, looking at everything, it would appear 25 that they are almost identical with the exception 474 1 that there is a different value there for standard 2 64.88 on RJ 33 and 64.56 on RJ 32. 3 Q. And what is that standard? 4 A. A hundred micromolar standard. 5 Q. And also at the top of RJ 33 it says 6 samples lot 89 and then space 2? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And on RJ 32 it says samples lot 89? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. That would also make it seem like it was 11 another run of the same data? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 14 hand you this document and mark it as RJ 34 and I 15 will ask you if you can identify it. 16 (Exhibit RJ 34 was marked for 17 identification) 18 (Pause) 19 BY MR. JACKSON: 20 Q. You may want to look at what already has 21 been entered into the record and identified as RJ 19 22 because I think it is part of the same document. 23 (Pause) 24 A. I believe you are correct on that. I 25 believe this is the, I guess it would be preceding RJ 475 1 19, the pages immediately preceding. 2 Q. It seems to me that RJ 34 is the first 3 three pages of a document that if combined with RJ 19 4 would be more or less the entire document. 5 A. For Water Conservation Areas 2A/3A, I 6 believe that's correct. 7 Q. So the sample site prefix 2A refers to 8 Water Conservation Area 2A? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So it is the transect that you ran in 2A? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Otherwise it is the same as RJ 19? 13 A. Yes. 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 15 Q. And the answer to the question was yes? 16 A. It's a portion of RJ 19 so it has to be. 17 Q. It reflects the same information that is 18 reflected on RJ 19, just for different sample sites? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And the same calculations were made with 21 respect to the total phosphorus? 22 A. I would assume that's correct. 23 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 24 hand you a document that will be marked as RJ 35 and 25 ask you if you can identify it. 476 1 (Exhibit RJ 35 was marked for 2 identification) 3 (Pause) 4 A. The document labeled RJ 35 would appear to 5 represent a compilation of the data contained in RJ 6 34 and the top I believe eight lines of RJ 19. 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q. Station 11 shows up on RJ 19 in Water 9 Conservation Area 2A? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And TP numbers that are listed in RJ 35, 12 those are the averages of the total phosphorus 13 concentrations from the sample sites that are listed 14 in RJ 34? 15 A. And RJ 19. 16 Q. What about the phosphatase column on RJ 17 35? 18 A. That would have been added at a later 19 time. 20 Q. So to your recollection the phosphatase -- 21 what do you do with phosphatase, you sample for it? 22 A. You sample the water for it. 23 Q. Those water samples taken that are 24 reflected in the phosphatase column, to your 25 recollection, were taken at a different time from the 477 1 soil sediment samples? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 3 question. 4 A. I believe that's correct. 5 Q. And the distances that are reflected on RJ 6 35 under the heading KM, I assume those are 7 distances? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. Do you know what point they are distances 10 from? 11 A. Looking at RJ 3, I would say they are 12 probably distances from S-10C. 13 Q. And those distances were calculated or 14 estimated using Loran? 15 A. I believe these distances I probably would 16 not have calculated myself. Bob Doren would have 17 calculated them and these were at his stations that 18 were marked in this particular area. 19 Q. Mr. Doren flagged the stations? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Do you recollect when the total phosphorus 22 sediment samples were taken approximately? 23 A. Sometime prior to the 9th of August, 1989. 24 Q. Had Mr. Doren selected this transect 25 location? 478 1 A. I can't really -- I do not believe that 2 that's entirely correct. I believe I had a fairly 3 large role in helping him to determine where this 4 transect would be run. 5 Q. What criteria did you use to identify the 6 location of this transect? 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I think 8 it has been asked and answered. 9 A. I don't quite understand what you are 10 asking me. 11 Q. What led you to place this transect at 12 this location as opposed to somewhere else in WCA-2A? 13 A. I believe there were a number of factors, 14 discussions with various people, and I don't remember 15 offhand what exactly led to the decision to put the 16 transect at that particular location. 17 Q. Could you describe some of the factors 18 that you believe may have led to that decision? 19 A. Things that I would have been looking at 20 would have been water deliveries into Water 21 Conservation Area 2A, I can't say how much that 22 played a role in there, a transect that would be 23 located along one of the vectors of flow in 2A, and I 24 believe I went almost all the way across to what I 25 believe is labeled as DL 35 B. I am not sure about 479 1 that designation. But those would have been my two 2 principal components. 3 Q. Do you remember who else participated in 4 the decision with respect to the location of this 5 transect? 6 A. I know for sure that Dan Scheidt and Bob 7 Doren and possibly Mark Maffei would have been in on 8 that decision. 9 Q. I am going to hand you a document that I 10 am going to ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 36 11 and ask you if you can identify it. 12 (Exhibit RJ 36 was marked for 13 identification) 14 A. I believe this represents the figure that 15 was generated using the numbers on RJ 35. 16 BY MR. JACKSON: 17 Q. I believe you testified that your 18 recollection is that the phosphatase sampling 19 occurred after the -- at a different date and a later 20 date than the total phosphorus sediment sampling, is 21 that correct? 22 A. I would believe that's correct, I am not 23 entirely certain of that. 24 Q. But the phosphatase values were collected 25 along the same transect? 480 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Were the flags still there when you took 3 the phosphatase samples? 4 A. You have to remember, I don't remember 5 when I collected the phosphatase samples there, if I 6 am not mistaken may have been in Water Conservation 7 Area 2A when I did this but I don't remember if I 8 took phosphatase at the time or not. There may be 9 another representation of phosphatase for this 10 particular area. So I don't know without seeing 11 that. 12 Q. The only point of my question was how you 13 knew you were still in the same transect Mr. Doren 14 had flagged. 15 A. At that same time we would have used the 16 Loran, he would have had used the Loran to locate the 17 original stations and we would have gone back to 18 those same Loran coordinates. 19 Q. So those coordinates would have to have 20 been recorded somewhere? 21 A. I assume that's correct. I don't have 22 those particular coordinates, I believe they were in 23 the field notes and came from Dan Scheidt. 24 Q. Or in Mr. Doren's files? 25 A. In Mr. Doren's files, perhaps. 481 1 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 2 hand you a document that has been used in a prior 3 deposition, Mr. Soukup's deposition and it was marked 4 in that deposition as MS 14 and I propose that we use 5 the same number for it in this deposition. 6 I would like to ask the court reporter to 7 hand this document to you and see if you can identify 8 it. 9 (Exhibit MS 14 was marked for 10 identification) 11 (Pause) 12 A. The last two pages, I had seen something 13 similar to, I'm not sure it is the same. 14 BY MR. JACKSON: 15 Q. There are actually two documents combined 16 here apparently and the second one is two pages of 17 figures, is that what you are referring to? 18 A. The two figures at the end of the 19 document. I am not familiar with these figures 20 directly. I may have seen them at one time. I don't 21 recall whether it was this figure or something of 22 similar nature. 23 Q. So I take it you did not prepare this 24 document that has been marked as MS 14? 25 A. No, I did not. 482 1 Q. Do you know the total P that is reflected 2 in the last two pages of MS 14 on the figures, the 3 total P, do you know what that represents? 4 A. Those would be my numbers. 5 Q. For soil sediment? 6 A. For soil sediment total phosphorus. 7 Q. And these would be along what we have been 8 calling the S-12C transect, if you can tell that? 9 A. I don't believe it is the S -- wait, maybe 10 it is. 11 (Pause) 12 A. From this I would have to say I can't 13 really tell whether it is the S-12C transect but I 14 would believe that is correct, in Everglades National 15 Park, without looking at the numbers and knowing what 16 they were out here. 17 Q. Let me ask, because I thought you said 18 that these seem to be your numbers, my only question 19 is, do you know where the sampling sites are? 20 A. I am not familiar with this figure so I 21 don't know what was used to generate this figure. 22 The only person that I know of that has 23 done any total phosphorus in Everglades National Park 24 or on these things coming from Mike Soukup's 25 deposition I assume would be my myself so I make that 483 1 assumption. I guess I could be wrong, somebody else 2 could have done this but I doubt it. 3 Q. And you don't know who prepared these 4 figures? 5 A. I could guess but I don't feel like I 6 really want to do that. 7 Q. What about the first two pages, do you 8 know who prepared this list of information? 9 A. Same answer, I could guess but I really 10 don't know for sure. 11 Q. You said, I thought, that you recollected 12 having seen the figures before, the last two pages of 13 MS 14. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you remember when and in what context? 16 A. I do not. 17 Q. Did you say that you had seen other 18 figures that were similar to these? 19 A. I had seen a lot of figures and I may have 20 seen these figures or I may have seen other figures 21 that were similar to these. I don't have any way of 22 knowing for sure whether they were these or some 23 other figures. 24 Q. Do you know the identities of any of the 25 people that have prepared any of the figures that you 484 1 have seen that are similar to these? 2 A. I again don't know -- I know who is in 3 charge of this particular set of -- this data set and 4 that would be Bob Doren, but I don't know if he 5 prepared the figures or whether anyone else in his 6 group prepared the figures or not. 7 Q. What does it mean for Bob Doren to be in 8 charge of this data set? 9 A. This was his portion of the project, I 10 believe. But again, it has something that says MS 11 chart on the top and I mean, that is not Bob's data 12 so as far as I know Mike Soukup would have prepared 13 these. I don't really know. 14 Q. What is the project to which you refer? 15 A. Not any project in general, I just believe 16 that Bob Doren is in charge of vegetation at the 17 Park. I'm not certain of that. 18 MS. PONZOLI: Are you at a breaking point 19 where we can take a brief break? 20 MR. JACKSON: Sure. 21 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 22 after which the following proceedings 23 were had) 24 MR. JACKSON: Let's go back on the record. 25 BY MR. JACKSON: 485 1 Q. I believe we all now have a document that 2 I am going to ask the court reporter to mark as RJ 3 37. 4 (Exhibit RJ 37 was marked for 5 identification) 6 Q. I would like to ask you, Dr. Jones, if you 7 recognize this document. 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please? 10 A. This represents some very crude 11 calculations I made, I was asked to make concerning 12 the possible input of phosphorus by the Miccosukee 13 Indian -- I don't know if it is a reservation or the 14 population that exists on the boundaries of 15 Everglades National Park. 16 Q. Near the S-12 structures? 17 A. Near I believe S-12A, S-12B. 18 Q. When were these calculations made? 19 A. It would have been sometime either -- not 20 either, late last year. I don't remember exactly. 21 Q. Who asked you to make them? 22 A. I believe Mike Soukup. 23 Q. The numbers at the top that say TP in 24 waste water, there is a line that says domestic and I 25 can't tell what the next word is. Do you know what 486 1 it means, that comes right before 15? 2 A. I believe the word is max, meaning maximum 3 or abbreviation for maximum. 4 Q. What does the 15 mean? 5 A. I would assume that would be the maximum 6 would be 15 milligrams per liter. 7 Q. And then the next number appears to be the 8 average of milligrams per liter? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And the minimum would be 4? Am I correct, 11 the minimum would be 4? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Where do these numbers come from? 14 A. A waste water engineering manual. I don't 15 believe I can be anymore specific than that without 16 actually getting it. 17 Q. And the next line that is labeled water 18 use, what do the numbers mean there, 350, 280 and 19 190, how are they being measured, what kind of units? 20 A. It says liters per -- I don't know if that 21 is P per person per day or what that is at this 22 point. I believe it would be person. 23 Q. So it is volume of water use? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What do the numbers S-12A, S-12B, S-12C 487 1 and S-12D, what do they represent? 2 A. They are not estimates, I don't want to 3 call it that. 4 Q. Approximations of the load of the 5 phosphorus coming through those particular 6 structures? 7 A. I don't know if it is average for a year, 8 an approximation. I believe I got those numbers from 9 Dan Scheidt. 10 Q. And those are approximate loadings of P 11 through those structures, they are total loadings, 12 not just loadings that might be attributed to the 13 Miccosukees? 14 A. That would be total load. 15 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 16 A. I don't know how it was calculated. I 17 don't know whether the Indians are included in that 18 or not. I doubt it, otherwise there would have been 19 very limited reason for me to make these 20 calculations. 21 Q. Do you know whether anyone has collected 22 water quality samples downstream from the Miccosukee 23 reservation? 24 A. I do not know if it has been done. 25 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 488 1 hand you a document to be labeled RJ 38 and ask if 2 you can identify that document, please. 3 (Exhibit RJ 38 was marked for 4 identification) 5 (Pause) 6 A. I recognize this. 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please? 9 A. This was an experiment we were doing in 10 the laboratory to examine the effects of the amount 11 of sample on the response, recorder response. We 12 were just checking out the chemistry. 13 Q. On the recorder response, is that what you 14 said? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What does that mean, what is the recorder 17 response? 18 A. I believe I described that on the Friday 19 of my previous time here, that as the samples are 20 analyzed the results are recorded on a chart recorder 21 at that time and that represents peak height, if you 22 will, the recorder response. 23 Q. And the left-hand column has numbers that 24 are appear to be 5 MG, 10 MG, et cetera, down. 25 A. That's correct. 489 1 Q. What does that mean? 2 A. That would be the amount of sample that 3 was weighted to those vials, approximately. 4 Q. In milligrams? 5 A. In milligrams, the exact weight would be 6 in the sediment dry weight column. 7 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 8 hand you another document marked as RJ 39 and ask you 9 if you can identify that. 10 (Exhibit RJ 39 was marked for 11 identification) 12 (Pause) 13 A. Yes, I think I know what this is. I 14 didn't know I had it. 15 BY MR. JACKSON: 16 Q. Can you tell us what it is, please? 17 A. We had put some periphytometers out at the 18 nutrient dosing site as I mentioned earlier and I 19 believe these are the results of the total phosphorus 20 collected from the material collected on those 21 slides. 22 Q. If I could direct your attention, please, 23 to RJ 14, the document that already has been 24 identified as RJ 14, does RJ 39 correspond to RJ 14? 25 A. In slight ways. I mean, they are not the 490 1 same data set. 2 Q. But they are at similar locations? 3 A. The locations, sample site locations are 4 similar. We didn't put periphytometers out at all 5 the samples we did for total phosphorus in the soils. 6 Q. The letters in the far left-hand column, 7 C, P, it is hard to tell, NP and N, would correspond 8 to the same types of letters found on RJ 14 in the 9 same place? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. What about the sample site, the numbers 12 for the sample site? 13 A. That would represent the meters from the 14 beginning of the channels and distance. 15 Q. And PO4 concentration that is recorded in 16 the far right-hand column of RJ 39 is the same type 17 of information that is recorded in the far right-hand 18 column of RJ 14? 19 A. Well, one of them is the plant material 20 that was collected on slides and the other one was 21 from soils so it would be the same type of material, 22 information, different matrix. 23 Q. 39 is not soil sediments? 24 A. No. 25 Q. I am going to ask the court reporter to 491 1 mark this next document as RJ 40 and hand it to you 2 and ask you to identify it. 3 (Exhibit RJ 40 was marked for 4 identification) 5 (Pause) 6 BY MR. JACKSON: 7 Q. I would like you to look at RJ 22, if you 8 would, please, because I believe RJ 40 and RJ 20 are 9 virtually the same document with one difference. 10 MS. PONZOLI: 20 or 22? 11 MR. JACKSON: 22. 12 MS. PONZOLI: 20? 13 MR. JACKSON: 20, yes. 14 Q. Just for the record it appears to me RJ 20 15 is simply an incomplete copy of RJ 40. Is that 16 correct? 17 (Pause) 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. If you could refer back to your affidavit, 20 please, the declaration that has been labeled RJ 1, 21 and if you could look at paragraph 14 for me, please. 22 The first sentence of paragraph 14 says, "My field 23 observations and laboratory measurements of total 24 phosphorus levels in Everglades soils indicate that 25 once the peat becomes saturated it can no longer hold 492 1 additional phosphorus and then phosphorus added to 2 saturated peat is transported downstream and taken up 3 by unsaturated peat." 4 Can you tell me what you mean by the 5 phrase saturated peat? 6 A. Peat that contains its, if you will, 7 maximum amount of phosphorus for that particular soil 8 type at a particular, if you will, time period in its 9 history. 10 Q. How do you determine what the maximum 11 amount of phosphorus is for peat? 12 A. We have a bunch of field observations and 13 laboratory measurements that indicate a value for 14 that, plus we can look at the experiments and you can 15 observe the saturation occurring in the experimental 16 results. 17 Q. I am not asking for what the numbers are, 18 I am trying to determine how you know peat is 19 saturated. How do you determine that it has reached 20 the saturate point? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form; asked and 22 answered. 23 A. I pointed out, I believe, that it is done 24 by observations and laboratory experimentation. 25 Q. What are those observations? 493 1 A. The observations would be values for total 2 phosphorus that I've determined from field samples 3 and then the shapes of the curves from the laboratory 4 measurements. 5 Q. When you determine the value from the 6 field observations, how do you know that that value 7 represents saturation? 8 A. It is a judgment call to some extent. 9 There is also information that can be tied in from 10 other organic soils, knowing what level they saturate 11 at, if you will, different values from different 12 areas of both Everglades National Park and also from 13 other parts of the country and Canada. 14 Q. What sort of factors go into the judgment 15 call? 16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 17 A. I would say the principal factor would be 18 the concentration of total phosphorus in that soil 19 would be the principal. 20 Q. Does the concentration of total phosphorus 21 in the soil have to reach a certain level before you 22 determine that that soil is saturated? 23 A. That's not necessarily the case. I 24 believe I pointed out that there is a certain history 25 involved in the formation of the soils and that would 494 1 also be involved in determining whether the soil was 2 saturated or not at that time or not. 3 Q. How would that history affect that 4 determination of saturation? 5 A. Well, a soil, for instance, that has a 6 very, very high concentration of total phosphorus may 7 be able to take on additional phosphorus but that 8 depends on how it had received its initial loading, 9 whether it had received it over a very short period 10 of time or whether it had received it over a long 11 extended period of time. 12 Q. Why would that make a difference? 13 A. It makes a difference from both the 14 chemical partitioning standpoint and the microbial 15 diagenesis of organic material and how it is formed. 16 Q. Can you tell me what difference it would 17 make if the soil had received phosphorus over a short 18 period of time, would that make it reach saturation 19 sooner or later? 20 A. The question being whether it would reach, 21 if you introduce phosphorus over a very short period 22 of time whether it would be faster or slower to reach 23 saturation? 24 Q. Yes? 25 A. It would be faster to reach saturation. 495 1 Q. Why would that be? 2 A. Because if you put a large quantity of 3 available phosphorus on to a system, the 4 microorganisms are going to incorporate that very 5 rapidly into their pools, that's the first order of 6 incorporation. 7 And at that point they would become 8 saturated and then the material would -- they 9 wouldn't be able to take up any more phosphorus. 10 Q. If you were sampling soil in the 11 Everglades, how would you determine whether or not 12 that soil was in the category of one that had 13 received phosphorus over a long period of time or 14 over a short period of time? 15 A. That is not, that's not something that I 16 determined. 17 Q. But I thought you said the history of the 18 soil was something that would be a factor that would 19 go into the judgment call as to whether or not it was 20 saturated. 21 A. It is something that would go in but it is 22 not something that I have a number for that says I 23 determined how old that particular soil was or at 24 what rate it received the material. There are things 25 we are doing now that may help elucidate that but we 496 1 haven't got that data at this point. 2 Q. If you don't know the history of soil, can 3 you still make the judgment call that you referred to 4 about saturation? 5 A. I didn't say I didn't know the history, if 6 you will, I mean, I know some general portions of the 7 history of that particular soil, the soils that we 8 have. I just don't know it to the sufficient detail 9 to use it as a principal component in determining 10 whether a soil is already saturated or not. 11 Q. I believe you also testified that the 12 saturation point of soils may vary from place to 13 place even within the Everglades? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 15 question. 16 A. That's correct. I don't remember whether 17 I testified to that or not. 18 Q. It is correct anyway, though. 19 With respect to making a determination of 20 whether soils in the field are saturated, have you 21 relied on any specific scientific methods to assess 22 whether or not a soil is saturated? 23 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 24 A. I don't believe I've made any assessments 25 of, whether, you know, going down saying for instance 497 1 a transect and can say a soil is saturated and this 2 one isn't. I have some feeling for whether they are 3 or are not and what the level. 4 Paragraph 14 I don't believe states that 5 there are saturated areas in Everglades soils, it 6 just states a fact what happens when a soil becomes 7 saturated. 8 Q. So you have not specifically identified 9 the location of saturated peat soils in the 10 Everglades? 11 A. I won't say that I have not identified 12 locations of saturated peats. 13 Q. You have? 14 A. I know where saturated peats are in the 15 Everglades. 16 Q. Have you identified that location 17 yourself? 18 A. I have identified that location myself, 19 yes. 20 (Pause) 21 Q. For the soils that you did identify in the 22 Everglades as saturated or that you feel are 23 saturated, how did you determine that they were in 24 fact saturated? 25 A. Laboratory experiments on those particular 498 1 soils looking at how they incorporate phosphorus. 2 Q. How did you measure how they incorporated 3 phosphorus? 4 A. It is described in several of the papers 5 that we presented using both radio labeled 6 orthophosphate and just a chemical analysis of 7 orthophosphate. 8 Q. Did they have to reach a certain 9 concentration of orthophosphate before you determined 10 that they were saturated? 11 A. That question makes no sense to me. 12 MS. PONZOLI: I guess I object to form. 13 Q. I thought you said that you determined -- 14 in the laboratory you made a chemical analysis of the 15 orthophosphate, is that correct? 16 A. Uptake of the orthophosphate, I am sorry, 17 I didn't say uptake. 18 Q. Did the uptake have to reach a certain 19 rate before you determined it was saturated? 20 A. It was more of the type of kinetics. I 21 mean kinetics indicate saturation very nicely. You 22 don't need to assume a concentration or anything. 23 When it reaches saturation it is very evident. 24 Q. How? How is it very evident? 25 A. The curve flattens out. 499 1 Q. Can you describe a threshold or a cutoff 2 for that saturation point? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. I am sorry, I don't understand what you 6 are asking me. 7 Q. A point at which saturation is reached 8 would be reflected by a flatness in the curve you 9 just referred to now? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Where were these soils taken from that you 12 examined in the laboratory and that you determined 13 were saturated? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 15 A. The soil that we have that we are 16 currently using that has the most -- that we 17 considered to be saturated soil comes from 18 immediately south of S-12D. 19 Q. Would that be within in the 100 meter 20 range that we have discussed before? 21 A. A hundred meter range meaning? 22 Q. South of the S-12D structure. 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Are there any other locations where you 25 have identified saturated soils in the Everglades, 500 1 saturated peat soils? 2 A. Not that we have done specific work in 3 trying to identify them as being saturated. 4 Q. Do you have a suspicion or a guess or an 5 estimate that they are located in other areas as 6 well? 7 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 8 A. Yes, I have a suspicion or a guess. 9 Q. Where would those other areas be? 10 A. Water Conservation Area 2A, Loxahatchee on 11 both the east and west canals, around, say for 12 instance perhaps the southern area of Water 13 Conservation Area 3A where the water pools up in that 14 area. Those would be my guesses as to where soils 15 that are saturated also exist. 16 Q. To take the Loxahatchee area, you said in 17 the canals? 18 A. Adjacent to the canals in the area. 19 Q. Inside of the Refuge? 20 A. Right, certainly in the canals also. 21 Q. How far away from the canal in Loxahatchee 22 inside the Water Conservation Area do you think the 23 soils are saturated? 24 mS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. I 25 think you are moving from a guess further and further 501 1 away. 2 A. I wouldn't really venture a guess how far 3 that distance would be. 4 Q. But the only point at which you have 5 documented saturation in the laboratory is south of 6 the S-12D, is that correct? 7 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 8 A. The point at which we are documenting 9 saturation, we are currently working on those 10 samples. 11 Q. When do you expect to complete that work? 12 A. That work is ongoing. It is not really in 13 a state where we are looking for a completion date or 14 that particular type of thing. We are not examining 15 that soil to determine saturation kinetics of that, 16 we are just using that soil as an example of a 17 saturated soil. 18 Q. You also say in paragraph 14 in this first 19 sentence that, as I understand it, once the peat 20 becomes saturated the phosphorus added to the 21 saturated peat is transported downstream and taken up 22 by unsaturated peat, to break out one of the concepts 23 that is contained in that sentence. 24 Could you describe the field observations 25 that support that statement? 502 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 2 question. 3 (Pause) 4 A. The field observations I guess would be 5 again the observations of the total phosphorus 6 levels. 7 I shouldn't say that, the laboratory 8 measurements of total phosphorus levels in the soils 9 would be more relevant for what I was using in that 10 place. I don't know what the field observations are. 11 Q. I am sorry, your answer is that you cannot 12 refer to any specific field observations that support 13 that point? 14 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. I don't 15 even know which one we are talking about at this 16 point in the question. 17 A. I don't know which field observations are 18 being referred to in this particular -- I don't know 19 how I used the term field observations in this 20 paragraph right now. 21 Q. What about laboratory measurements, then? 22 A. Laboratory measurements of total 23 phosphorus would be the things that gave me the 24 indication, the gradient would be the principal 25 component of that. 503 1 Q. And this is the gradient that you 2 described in paragraph 9 of your declaration? 3 (Pause) 4 A. One of them. It doesn't necessarily have 5 to be the gradient described in 9, it could also be 6 then observations of say gradients in Water 7 Conservation Area 2A or many other places. 8 Q. Let's take the one described in 9. That 9 would be one of the gradients you are referring to, 10 is that correct? 11 A. Not necessarily. I haven't determined 12 whether there is saturation of the peat on that 13 particular transect. 14 Q. Are any of the gradients that you are 15 referring to described in this declaration? 16 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 17 A. Could you? I didn't get the question. 18 (The question referred to was 19 thereupon read by the reporter 20 as above recorded) 21 Q. I may not have understood. I thought you 22 told me laboratory experiments demonstrated this 23 phenomenon we are talking about. Right now you 24 referred to gradients of phosphorus concentrations in 25 the soils, is that correct? 504 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Are any of those gradients described in 3 this declaration that has been identified as RJ 1? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 5 question. 6 A. I would have to read RJ 1 again and see 7 whether we used any of those gradients in here. I 8 don't remember whether we described them all. 9 (Pause) 10 A. Do you want me to go through it? 11 Q. I thought paragraph 9 was one of the 12 gradients you were referring to but I think now you 13 are saying it is not 14 A. Paragraph 9 may very well be one of them 15 but there may be others. I don't tie paragraph 14 to 16 paragraph 9 directly. 17 The saturation was described to you as 18 being a process that depends upon the history of the 19 soil, short term and long term, how it is exposed to 20 phosphorus, so saturation will be different for 21 different soils which I believe is the statement you 22 made that I agreed to. 23 Q. If the gradient described in paragraph 9 24 is one of the gradients that you are referring to, I 25 just want to ask you if you can show me how that 505 1 gradient demonstrates the phenomenon we are talking 2 about in paragraph 14. 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 4 A. You asked me to define saturated peat, 5 meaning a peat soil that I can say is saturated. 6 The point from the gradients and from the 7 types of soils is that the saturation depends upon 8 its history. So whereas one soil might have to have 9 10X the amount of phosphorus in it to be saturated 10 another soil with a more rapid exposure or more 11 long-term exposure, depending on the situation, might 12 only have to have 1X that amount to be saturated and 13 allowing material to move on. 14 But there is a point at which you get 15 unity where all soils would be considered to be, all 16 of these soils would be considered to be saturated. 17 And that I believe is the number, not 18 number, but the value or description of that 19 particular point that you were trying to ask me 20 about. 21 Q. But how does the gradient show once the 22 peat becomes saturated, and let's assume we 23 established that, that phosphorus added to the 24 saturated peat is transported downstream and is taken 25 up by unsaturated peat? 506 1 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. You asked 2 and he answered it multiple times. 3 A. I believe a gradient can be a 4 demonstration of saturation kinetics, if you will. I 5 don't know whether I would use the gradient described 6 in paragraph 9 as describing saturation kinetics. I 7 have to go back and look at it in that context. 8 Q. Take any gradient, how would it show 9 saturation kinetics? 10 A. If I had a gradient where I had some sort 11 of level value or very high values at the onset of 12 the gradient, then as those values started to go into 13 a transition phase that would indicate that the 14 original portion of that was saturated. 15 Q. What do you mean by the onset of the 16 gradient? 17 A. The onset of the changing slope. 18 Q. What about the transition phase, what does 19 that mean? 20 A. The transition would be the point where it 21 would go from a level to an area where it is 22 decreasing or increasing in the amount of total 23 phosphorus. 24 Q. Have you used any chemical tracer 25 measurements to identify the release and transport of 507 1 phosphorus downstream? 2 A. Where? 3 Q. In the Everglades. 4 A. No. 5 Q. The answer is no? 6 A. No. The answer is no. 7 Q. I am sorry? 8 A. Yes, the answer is no. 9 Q. Thanks. 10 Would that be a valid method of 11 determining the release and transport of phosphorus 12 downstream? 13 A. If you could come up with a legitimate 14 tracer for phosphorus, not just a tracer of water. 15 Q. I get the impression from your answer 16 there is implied a problem with coming up with a 17 legitimate tracer for phosphorus? 18 A. Phosphorus doesn't have any radioactive 19 species that are long enough lived to use it as a 20 tracer and it doesn't have any analogs other than 21 arsenic and perhaps molybdenum in metals and they are 22 not in sufficient quantities to be used as tracers. 23 Q. Have you conducted any field tests in the 24 Everglades to determine the relationship of the 25 phosphorus concentration in the soil and the rate of 508 1 phosphorus uptake in that soil? 2 A. We have a limited data set on that, yes. 3 Q. Where was that data collected? 4 A. It was collected in two areas of the Park. 5 One of them would be at the nutrient dosing site and 6 the other would be in between, I believe it is S-12C 7 and S-12D. It may be actually in between the first 8 culvert and S-12C, but the site that is described in 9 those papers that we presented. 10 Q. Have you determined whether that uptake 11 rate changes over time? 12 A. You are going to have to be more specific 13 because the uptake rate changes over time depending 14 upon what you are measuring. 15 Q. With respect to the nutrient dosing site, 16 for example, did you determine that the rate of 17 phosphorus uptake in the soil changes over time? 18 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 19 A. Time meaning laboratory scale, 20 experimental time, or time meaning calendar season or 21 year? 22 Q. Calendar. 23 A. No, we did not. 24 Q. What about at the site between 12D and 25 12C? 509 1 A. The site at the northern end, wherever it 2 is. 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. It is the same thing goes there, we did 5 not use calendar time as being a determination of 6 whether the uptake rate changes. 7 Q. Did you or have you measured the soil 8 retention capabilities for nitrogen and phosphorus at 9 the site between 12D and 12C that we are talking 10 about? 11 A. We have looked at the effects of nitrogen 12 on phosphorus. We have not measured -- we have not 13 measured nitrogen as such. 14 Q. What about the retention capability of 15 phosphorus at that site, the soils for phosphorus at 16 that site? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You did measure that? 19 A. Yes, we measured that. 20 Q. And at the nutrient dosing site? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Have you made any measurements about the 23 soil retention capabilities for phosphorus of soils 24 at the marl sites that you encountered on the 12C 25 transect? 510 1 A. We are working on that now. Samples were 2 collected very close to the 12C transects, I don't 3 want to say they were along the 12C transects. 4 Q. When will that work be complete? 5 A. The work is again ongoing. It is part of 6 a Ph.D. project for a student in the laboratory. 7 We have some data that should be available 8 in the next couple of weeks, but then it is going to 9 be continuing for at least the next three to five 10 years. 11 Q. Who is the Ph.D. candidate? 12 A. Grace Richany. 13 Q. If you would look at paragraph 15 of your 14 declaration, please. 15 (Pause) 16 Q. The first sentence of the paragraph 17 describes three ways in which total phosphorus 18 effects can be eliminated from the peat and I would 19 like to direct your attention to the second way that 20 you have identified here which is that the 21 destruction of peat by fire which removes the 22 phosphorus from the peat but in such a way that the 23 phosphorus is transported downstream. 24 Do you see what I am referring to? 25 A. Yes, I do. 511 1 Q. Could you describe how phosphorus is 2 removed from peat when peat is destroyed by fire? 3 A. Phosphorus in the peat is in the 4 predominant form of organic phosphorus compounds. 5 When muck fires occur they oxidize this material to 6 generally orthophosphate. Then that material upon 7 reflooding, given that there is a component of that 8 flooding that is downstream, used here, that portion 9 of that orthophosphate that has been released would 10 be transported downstream. 11 Q. Would the other form of phosphorus be 12 transported downstream by that phosphorus? 13 A. The predominant form would be 14 orthophosphate ash, phosphorus that is contained in 15 the ash which may not be completely ortho, might be 16 transported downstream also as particulate, but that 17 is just speculation. 18 Q. And the orthophosphate that is released, 19 would that always be transporteded downstream if 20 there is sufficient flow? 21 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 22 question. 23 A. Not necessarily. 24 Q. What would keep it from being transported 25 downstream? 512 1 A. Very rapid uptake by the communities or 2 the substrate that is at that point after the fire. 3 Q. I take it that is a theoretical effect 4 that you are referring to, or have you measured that 5 phenomenon? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 7 question. 8 A. It would be theoretical. 9 Q. Do you know what the rate of transfer of 10 the orthophosphate downstream would be? 11 A. I do not. 12 Q. Do you know of any studies that have 13 attempted to quantify that rate? 14 A. I do not. 15 Are you referring to transports of the 16 orthophosphate, correct, after a fire? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. If I could direct your attention back to 20 paragraph 14, the last sentence says, "Thus, as 21 excess phosphorus continues to be added to the marsh, 22 the zone in which the peat soil accumulates and 23 becomes saturated with excess phosphorus expands." 24 I would like to ask you a question with 25 respect to that sentence. Have you collected data 513 1 which demonstrates this phenomenon? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 3 A. Some of my data may demonstrate that 4 phenomenon. I have not used it in that context. 5 Q. Were you relying on that data when you 6 wrote this portion of your declaration and this 7 sentence? 8 A. I believe considering that would be a 9 portion of the laboratory measurements of total 10 phosphorus, that I would have relied on it to some 11 extent. 12 But paragraph 14 is largely a fairly 13 accepted ecological consequence of loading soils, 14 saturation and transport. It is not an unusual 15 phenomenon to describe in this manner. 16 Q. That also refers to the expansion of the 17 zone that you referred to in the last sentence of 18 paragraph 14? 19 A. Certainly. 20 Q. That is a common accepted ecological -- 21 A. Oh, yes. 22 Q. Did that zone expand? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What about the rate at which it is 25 expanding? 514 1 A. I don't believe I indicated anything to do 2 with rates of expansion here. 3 Q. Do you know what the rate of expansion is? 4 A. For this particular system? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. No. 7 Q. So can you say what the rate of expansion 8 is for saturated soils in the Park? 9 A. No. 10 Q. No? 11 A. No. 12 Q. To return to paragraph 15, please, the 13 next to last sentence starts with the word based at 14 the bottom of page 8, do you see where I am, based on 15 my knowledge? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That sentence reads, "Based on my 18 knowledge and understanding of phosphorus cycling in 19 Everglades peat soils it is my opinion that the 20 effects of elevated TP" -- or total phosphorus -- "in 21 Everglades soils have the potential to remain for 22 hundreds of years because of the limited ability of 23 the system to rid itself of phosphorus." 24 How did you arrive at the figure hundreds 25 of years? 515 1 A. Two things were used in arriving at this 2 figure. 3 One was an experiment in the laboratory 4 where we loaded the soil column with phosphorus and 5 then washed it off over a period of time, I don't 6 know what that is without seeing the data sheet, 7 calculated value that was remaining after this period 8 of time and looked at the curve to see what that came 9 up with. 10 And the other thing would have been values 11 from the literature and discussions with various 12 other people concerning phosphorus retention in 13 biotic communities, and abiotic communities and 14 coming to a general consensus, we felt that hundreds 15 of years was actually rather conservative. 16 Q. This laboratory experiment, what was the 17 source of the soil in it, the soil column? 18 A. I believe it would have been soil from the 19 nutrient dosing site control area but I'm not certain 20 of that without seeing the data sheet. 21 Q. Just to get my layman's understanding, you 22 saturated the soil in the laboratory, is that what 23 you were trying to do? 24 A. We added phosphorus to the soil in the 25 laboratory, it was not necessarily saturated in the 516 1 laboratory. 2 Q. But you were trying to determine the 3 effects of saturation of the soil? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 5 question. 6 A. We were trying to determine if the length 7 of time that phosphorus added to soil would remain in 8 that soil only looking at the soil component and very 9 short time frame. 10 Q. What was the time frame that you looked 11 at? 12 A. I don't know. You would have to show me 13 the data sheet or I have to get the data sheet. I 14 don't remember. 15 Q. Not to pin you down to a precise figure 16 but just a relative figure, are we talking about 17 hours or days? 18 A. We are talking days, probably more likely 19 weeks, but I don't remember. 20 Q. And if I understand your testimony 21 correctly, you extrapolated the data that you 22 obtained from washing this column of soil with total 23 phosphorus over weeks to centuries? 24 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 25 question. 517 1 A. I did not say that. I said we judged it 2 as a portion of it and the rest was based on 3 conversations and general understanding of what 4 happens to phosphorus in ecosystems. 5 Q. Could you tell me who some of those people 6 are that you consulted in those conversations? 7 A. Probably the person I spoke to most would 8 have been Dr. David Lean, L E A N. 9 Q. And could you summarize the conclusion 10 that you reached as a result of those conversations? 11 A. The conclusion that I reached is 12 summarized in paragraph 15. 13 Q. No, I mean with respect to taking the 14 information you got from washing the soil column over 15 weeks and extrapolating it over centuries. 16 A. I didn't take the column data from weeks 17 and extrapolating it into centuries. You are saying 18 I did that, I did not say I did that. 19 The conversations that we had were about 20 how phosphorus is held in nutrient limited systems 21 and not nutrient limited systems. And then we or I 22 came up with the understanding and still believe it 23 to be correct, that the phosphorus in these systems 24 unaffected would maintain itself for hundreds of 25 years. 518 1 Q. When you say that's a conservative 2 estimate, you might be willing to say that this might 3 also take millenia? 4 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 5 A. I can give examples of systems where it 6 takes millenia. 7 Q. What are those? 8 A. Ocean sediments, for instance, lake 9 sediments, sediments of many estuarines and base 10 phosphorus is there for a long geological time. 11 Q. What was the total phosphorus 12 concentration in the soil column that you washed when 13 it was obtained from the field? 14 A. I don't know offhand. I would have to say 15 if it is in the control area it is somewhere between, 16 what, 150 and 300 micrograms per gram. 17 Q. How would that compare with the total 18 phosphorus concentration in the soil that we were 19 referring to before where you said that you had 20 identified saturated or virtually saturated soil in 21 the Everglades? 22 MS. PONZOLI: Excuse me, may I hear that 23 question again. 24 (The question referred to was 25 thereupon read by the reporter 519 1 as above recorded) 2 A. You want me to give you a value for the 3 saturated soils in the Everglades? 4 Q. Well, do you recollect the reference point 5 that I made? 6 A. I am not sure whether you are referring to 7 the soils that we are using currently in the 8 laboratory and calling them saturated soils or 9 whether you want my general opinion of what saturated 10 soils in the Everglades contain. 11 Q. No, I thought you said earlier that you 12 had identified saturated soils within, say, a hundred 13 meters south of the S-12D structure? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. It is those soils I am asking about. 16 A. You would have to look at the numbers on 17 the sheets. I believe it is around 1500 micrograms 18 per gram but that's a rough guess. 19 Could we take a break? 20 Q. Sure. 21 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken, 22 after which the following proceedings 23 were had) 24 BY MR. JACKSON: 25 Q. Dr. Jones, if I could direct your 520 1 attention to Exhibit RJ 4, it already has been 2 identified in this deposition. 3 (Pause) 4 Q. At the last set of sessions of this 5 deposition we asked you if you could look for the 6 review comments to which RJ 4 was responding. Were 7 you able to look for those comments? 8 A. Yes. We brought them with us this 9 morning. 10 I was not able to, I shouldn't say locate, 11 I know where the manuscript, the copies that were 12 marked by the various reviewers, I know where they 13 are at. They went back to the journal as requested 14 and we do not have copies of them. 15 MS. PONZOLI: I will hand those out. 16 MR. JACKSON: Do you have any additional 17 documents, Mrs. Ponzoli, in response to request of 18 production of documents or in response to our 19 requests at the previous sessions of the deposition. 20 MS. PONZOLI: I think this was in response 21 to a request at that session. 22 Is that accurate, Dr. Jones? 23 THE WITNESS: This is the latest iteration 24 of the total phosphorus paper. 25 (Pause) 521 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, total phosphorus paper, 2 Canadian journal. I don't believe that you requested 3 that. I just provide that. 4 (Pause) 5 A. The request was made that I look at some 6 additional documents to determine, I believe, one of 7 them was a document where there was a xeroxing 8 problem, running across it, and another one was where 9 I had mentioned that I might have had some notation 10 alongside of data points. 11 Q. The xeroxing problem, if I recall, showed 12 up on RJ 10, is that the one you are referring to, on 13 the second page? 14 A. Yes, it is. My examining the documents 15 that we provided you all is that this document is not 16 amongst them but the original is amongst those 17 samples, so you have the original of this. This is a 18 document from my understanding that was produced down 19 from the Park files, not my files. 20 Q. I am sorry, you are saying that RJ 10 was 21 produced out of the the Park files and not out of 22 your files? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Maybe to shortcut this, do you have, Ms. 25 Ponzoli, a copy that doesn't have this xeroxing 522 1 problem? 2 MS. PONZOLI: I would have to look. I 3 didn't realize that would be -- you are asking me to 4 check the Park documents? 5 MR. JACKSON: Let me clarify the record. 6 Q. Dr. Jones, do you have a copy of RJ 10 in 7 your files? 8 A. No, I do not. I have this data in my 9 files. RJ 10 has got F numbers at the bottom of the 10 page and it has an ENP and then a dash and a number 11 there which means I do not have RJ 10 in my files, I 12 have this data. 13 Q. Could you provide the missing numbers for 14 the sites where the xeroxing has obscured the PO4 15 concentration values? 16 A. Yes, I believe I can. I will do that at 17 lunch or whatever, I will go through and see what 18 this thing is. 19 The question mark was why is this whited 20 out and this did not come from my documents. 21 You have been provided this same data, you 22 have it in your data set. 23 MS. PONZOLI: If I understand you 24 correctly, you believe over lunch you could locate 25 which document that they have already in their 523 1 possession reflects that data set? 2 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 3 Q. If I have this same document that I got 4 from the Park, then it has this same xeroxing 5 problem? 6 MS. PONZOLI: You are not understanding. 7 He is telling you you have a data set that reflects 8 the data. They may have put it into their computer 9 and created some document that has a duplicating flaw 10 or something but the actual raw information you have 11 in some document in your possession and he will look 12 through that which he brought with him today to try 13 and identify which data set it is and then you can 14 look at the document you already have and compare it 15 to this document from Everglades National Park. 16 Am I accurate, Dr. Jones? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. JACKSON: 19 Q. Did you bring a document with you today 20 that would help you determine that? 21 A. I believe I have a document with me today 22 that would help me determine that. 23 Q. Can we see that? 24 A. I will look for it at lunch. I have a 25 general idea of where it is at. I am sorry, I did 524 1 not -- this is not -- MS 10 is not one of my 2 documents. I have a similar document. 3 MS. PONZOLI: I have other documents, Mr. 4 Jackson. 5 MR. JACKSON: Can we go over those, 6 please? 7 (Pause) 8 MR. JACKSON: Let's go off the record for 9 a second. 10 (Discussion off the record) 11 MR. JACKSON: Let's go back on the record. 12 BY MR. JACKSON: 13 Q. Dr. Jones, if we could return to your 14 declaration that has been marked as Exhibit RJ 1, and 15 I would like to refer to paragraph 16. 16 (Pause) 17 Q. The first sentence of that paragraph 18 reads: "I have made hundreds of field visits to the 19 marshes in Everglades National Park, the Water 20 Conservation Areas and Loxahatchee National Wild Life 21 Refuge in the past five years." 22 I would like to ask you with respect to 23 that first sentence, how many hundreds are you 24 talking about? 25 A. Probably in the low hundreds, maybe 200 at 525 1 the most, 300. 2 Q. Could you estimate from that 2 to 300, how 3 many are in the Park? 4 A. The vast majority of them. 5 Q. How many of those were along the transect 6 south of the S-12C structure? 7 A. Formally along the transect south of the 8 S-12C structure, no more than 10. 9 Q. You use the word formally. I think we 10 have determined that the S-12C transect has a width 11 of approximately a hundred meters more or less, is 12 that correct? 13 A. You have determined that it has a width of 14 approximately a hundred meters, I have said that it 15 has some unknown width, each time we were there we 16 were sampling no more than 50 meters on one side from 17 the helicopter versus the other. 18 Q. The location of your sampling sites would 19 be within a hundred meters? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When you say formally, are you limiting 22 the answer of approximately 10 visits to that 100 23 meter width? 24 A. To the transects along that particular 25 line of longitude, I would say that out there, I have 526 1 been out there when people have been sampling in 2 wider than a hundred meters. 3 Q. How many field visits would that number 4 be, if you go outside the hundred meter width of the 5 transect? 6 A. I believe two. 7 Q. There was also a somewhat shorter or 8 incomplete transect below the 12D structure that we 9 discussed in the first two days of your deposition. 10 Would any of the field visits that you are 11 referring to in the first sentence of paragraph 16 be 12 along that transect as well, too? 13 A. I have flown many, many times in the 14 northern end and over the entire Park and I would 15 hate to say that I had not been along that transect 16 on multiple occasions, the same as this formula, if 17 you will, visits to the S-12C transect. You know, we 18 fly up that direction quite often. 19 So there are a lot of times when I have 20 not been out there formally for doing field work 21 myself at those sites, showing other people around, 22 et cetera. 23 Q. And so your observations would include 24 what you are calling these informal visits as well, 25 too? 527 1 A. Most certainly. 2 Q. And you referred to the northern end of 3 what I assume you meant to be the northern end of the 4 Park. Could you just give me a general geographic 5 description of what you mean by the northern end of 6 the Park? 7 A. I would guess -- I don't really want to 8 put a defined boundary on what is north and south in 9 the Park. I mean -- 10 Q. Let me withdraw that question then so we 11 don't beat that dead horse. 12 A. Please. 13 Q. Let me ask with respect to the first 14 sentence in paragraph 16 if you could tell me how 15 many formal field visits to the Park you would 16 estimate are included in this first sentence of 17 paragraph 16. 18 A. Sampling in the Park where I have actually 19 collected samples or been in the field taking other 20 people out and helping them with their sampling would 21 probably be in the range of maybe 150 or so, 22 somewhere around there. 23 Q. Sampling visits? 24 A. Sampling visits, yes. 25 Q. Have you made any record of these visits 528 1 with respect to vegetation? 2 A. No. 3 Q. The statements that you make in paragraph 4 16 of RJ 1, are you relying on any written record of 5 vegetation for those statements? 6 A. No, none of the vegetation, I mean, this 7 is all observation. 8 Q. And you are relying on memory with respect 9 to these vegetation observations? 10 A. Yes, I have to say it is my memory, yes. 11 Q. When you have made these observations have 12 there been other scientists with you who are also -- 13 let me withdraw that question. 14 When you were making these visits that you 15 referred to in paragraph 16 were there also 16 scientists with you who were assessing the vegetation 17 of the Park? 18 A. At some times. 19 Q. Who were those people? 20 A. Bob Doren, I forget the technician's name. 21 His technician, his name escapes me right now. 22 Q. Mr. Doren's technician? 23 A. Yes, Mr. Doren's technician. 24 Q. We have field notes from Mr. Scheidt so I 25 think -- 529 1 A. Dan Scheidt, yes. 2 Q. He would fall in that category too? Are 3 you aware of anyone else with you during these field 4 visits who was recording vegetation phenomenon? 5 A. Considering we are talking over a five 6 year period here, I would have to include John 7 Sternberg and Bill Loftus in these. 8 Q. Do you know, except for Mr. Scheidt, who 9 we already established took field notes during your 10 deposition, do you know if these other people took 11 field notes of their visits? 12 A. I would assume that that occurred. Bill 13 Loftus, for instance, was -- those field visits were 14 not along one of the transects, it was in the Park, 15 and just general times I have been out in the 16 northern area or in the Park with Bill and he had 17 been taking some information on periphyton and 18 various types of species relevant to his studies. 19 Q. And what does Mr. Sternberg do? Is he 20 employed by the Park? 21 A. I believe he was employed by the Park at 22 that time. 23 Q. And he is a scientist too, I think? 24 A. I believe so. 25 Q. Do you know what his specialty is? 530 1 A. I believe botany. 2 Q. What about Mr. Loftus? 3 A. Fisheries biology. 4 Q. I think you said that Mr. Doren was in 5 charge of vegetation, I take it by that you mean he 6 is a botanist or he is employed by the Park to deal 7 with vegetation issues? 8 A. He is at this current time. I don't know 9 what it was during the complete five years. I just 10 met Bob Doren recently. 11 Q. But ever since you have known him he has 12 been what you would consider to be a botanist? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. In the second sentence of this paragraph 15 16 you say that "Through these field visits and my 16 scientific studies of Everglades ecosystems I have 17 become familiar with the normal growth patterns of 18 native Everglades plant species." 19 Could you define the phrase growth 20 patterns for me, please? 21 A. I use this in a very general term meaning 22 that I'm familiar with the general characteristics of 23 various species of Everglades plants, where they can 24 be expected to be found and what they would look like 25 under unimpacted conditions. 531 1 Q. I am trying to zero in on the phrase 2 growth patterns. I'm not sure I understand why your 3 familiarity with where species happen to be located 4 has to do with growth, for example. Can you just 5 elaborate on that for me, please? 6 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form, asked and 7 answered. 8 A. I think that you have to be very general 9 in what you determine to use the word growth defined 10 here, not necessarily meaning how much does the plant 11 weigh or how tall it is, but also what its spatial 12 distribution would be and what relationship that 13 holds with these particular systems. 14 Q. So did you measure the spatial 15 distribution of the species you are referring to in 16 the second sentence of paragraph 16? 17 A. I believe I said I became familiar with 18 their normal growth patterns. 19 Q. So the answer is no? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 A. If you mean did I formally measure it 22 using some sort of measuring device, the answer is 23 no. 24 Q. You also referred in your answer, I 25 believe the height or at least the size of individual 532 1 members of the species as being another way in which 2 one can determine growth patterns? 3 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form of the 4 question. 5 A. It is an observation that could be made 6 and I would consider that to be a portion of growth. 7 Again, it is not a measurement, going out and 8 physically measuring exactly how high each plant is. 9 Q. You did not determine the -- let me 10 withdraw that. 11 You did not make a formal measurement of 12 plant size? 13 A. I made informal measurements of some plant 14 size. 15 Q. I realize that later on in this paragraph 16 you refer to the height of sawgrass. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And to exclude that for the time being you 19 did you make any formal or informal measurements of 20 plant size? 21 A. I judged individual plant sizes but I did 22 not make any formal measurements of that judgment, in 23 other words, was it a meter or was it a meter and 10 24 centimeters. 25 Q. What other species aside from sawgrass did 533 1 you make this judgment of plant size? 2 A. Cattail would be another. 3 Q. What others? 4 A. In size, in height, that would be about 5 it. 6 Q. What else could you measure beside height? 7 A. Density. 8 Q. Did you make any formal or informal 9 measurements of the density of any of the species you 10 are referring to in paragraph 16? 11 A. Informal estimates of density. 12 Q. What species did you make those informal 13 estimates of? 14 A. Panicum and I believe it is referred to as 15 arrow leaf. 16 Q. Arrow leaf? 17 A. Arrow leaf, it is Pontideria, for what it 18 is worth. 19 Q. I think we have discussed height and 20 spatial distribution. What other measurements of 21 size have you made with respect to the plant species 22 referred to in this second sentence? 23 A. I believe that probably represents it. 24 Q. That's it? 25 A. Yes, all of it. 534 1 Q. What about abundance, did you measure 2 abundance of these species? 3 MS. PONZOLI: Asked and answered. 4 A. I observed abundance of some of these 5 species. 6 Q. What is the difference between observing 7 abundance and measuring abundance? 8 A. To me measuring refers to applying a 9 device or a technique other than visual observation 10 and coming up with a number, if you will, for that 11 particular area. If I were to tell you I measured 12 total phosphorus I would be able to expect to give 13 you a number for that measurement. 14 Q. So you did not measure the abundance of 15 these species, is that what you are saying? 16 A. That is correct, in a direct manner. 17 Q. Would it be safe to say your observation 18 of abundance was an estimate? 19 A. Yes. 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to the form. 21 Q. What about with respect to the number of 22 individuals? 23 A. It would be an estimate. 24 Q. But you made that estimate as well too? 25 A. Yes. 535 1 Q. Did you measure or estimate the seasonal 2 timing of the growth of these plants? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. What about the flowering of these plants? 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. What about the comparative percentage of 7 cover of the various species that you are referring 8 to in the second sentence of paragraph 16, did you 9 measure that? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you attempt to estimate that? 12 A. It would have been one of the visual 13 observations. 14 Q. What about frequency for these species, 15 did you compare the frequency of these species, did 16 you measure that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you estimate it? 19 A. If I have all the other numbers, I would 20 have to say I estimated it in some way, shape or 21 form. 22 Q. The species that we have talked about so 23 far with respect to the second sentence of paragraph 24 16 I believe are cattails, sawgrass, Panicum, arrow 25 leaf and that's all I have. Are there any other 536 1 species that you are referring to in the second 2 sentence of paragraph 16 that are native Everglades 3 plant species? 4 A. Utricularia, I believe Eleocharis would 5 have to be amongst them. 6 That would be -- periphyton, I guess, on a 7 whole we could consider to be a plant species. 8 Q. Any others? 9 A. I am not saying that is an exhaustive list 10 of every plant I have ever seen in the Everglades -- 11 Q. I just want the ones you are referring to 12 in the second sentence of paragraph 16. 13 A. That doesn't refer to anything, it says 14 Everglades plant species, it is pretty general. I 15 can't say that is a limited list. If somebody asked 16 me something about pond apple, I might be able to say 17 a little bit of distribution of that but -- 18 Q. Which ones did you mean when you wrote 19 this affidavit? 20 MS. PONZOLI: I object to form. 21 A. I didn't have anything specific in mind. 22 Q. What do you consider to be normal growth 23 pattern as you use that phrase in the second sentence 24 of paragraph 16? 25 A. Those that I would observe at a further 537 1 distance south in the Park where it appeared to be as 2 background pattern, background vegetation patterns. 3 Q. How did you know that was normal? 4 A. That's an assumption that I assume that 5 that's normal considering those are pristine areas of 6 the marsh, conversations with other people as to what 7 a normal area would represent. 8 Q. I take it when you say pristine areas of 9 the marsh, we are talking about the areas that are at 10 the southern end of, for example, the 12C transect, 11 the 16 kilometer point? 12 MS. PONZOLI: I object. 13 A. You could use that point, yes. There are 14 other areas of the marsh. I base this on all of my 15 field visits to the system, not just one. 16 Q. What other areas can you identify for me 17 that are pristine areas of the Park? 18 A. I don't feel like I should be identifying 19 pristine or unimpacted areas of the Park other than 20 central areas of the Shark River Slough, would be an 21 example of the marsh habitats that are pristine. 22 Q. That would include the site of the 23 nutrient dosing study excepting the areas that were 24 dosed? 25 A. Yes. 538 1 Q. Are there any other pristine areas that 2 you are referring to when you use the word normal in 3 the second sentence of paragraph 16? 4 A. I believe I stated I have been on lots of 5 trips to the Park and I would not be willing to 6 exclude other pristine areas. I just don't know how 7 to define, you know,