5THEREUPON,
DAVID W. BLACK
being by me first duly sworn to tell the whole truth,
as hereinafter certified, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. NASH:
Q. Mr. Black, I'm counsel for the United
States in this litigation.
We're here taking these depositions to
understand the Water Management District's
computer systems, and how they're used, what data
is on it, and how that data is formatted.
You have been selected as a representative
of the Water Management District having knowledge
of one or more of the categories of inquiry that we
are interested in.
Have you been shown that list of
categories?
A. Yes.
Q. And are you aware of which categories
you're able to respond to?
A. If I might look at a list, I could read
them off to you. Let's see. No. 4, No. 5 and No.
6
9.
Q. What is your present title or position?
A. Supervising professional environmentalist.
Q. In what department or division?
A. The environmental planning division of the
planning department.
Q. And what are your job responsibilities?
A. Let's see. I supervise six employees and
I manage -- well, one contract, and generally help
people solve certain problems having to do with the
GIS.
Q. How long have you been a supervising
professional environmentalist?
A. About one year.
Q. Have you had other positions at the Water
Management District?
A. Yes.
Q. And what positions were those?
A. Prior to my present position, I was a
senior environmentalist. And prior to that, a
research environmentalist.
Q. And how long were you a senior
environmentalist?
A. Perhaps six months.
Q. In what division?
7
A. In the water quality division of the
resource planning department.
Q. What were your job responsibilities as
senior environmentalist?
A. I managed two contracts.
Q. What were those contracts?
A. Well, one of them involved a study of an
orange grove in Hendry County. The other a -- was
a study of the effects of orange groves, citrus
development on wildlife habitat.
Q. How long were you a research
environmentalist?
A. A year and a half approximately.
Q. In what division or department?
A. In that same water quality division of
the resource planning department.
Q. What were your responsibilities as a
research environmentalist?
A. Essentially the same as my
responsibilities as a senior environmentalist.
Q. And what is your educational background?
A. Let's see. I have a BA degree with a
major in biology from Reed College in Portland,
Oregon. I have a Ph.D. in biology from the
University of Miami. I have taken course work at
8
Florida Atlantic University in computers and
engineering.
Q. Who is your supervisor in the environment
planning division?
A. Tony Federico is my supervisor.
Q. And you indicated that there are six
employees that work for you?
A. Right.
Q. What are their names and job descriptions?
A. Louise Boss, who is a -- her actual title
is environmentalist, Dan Haunert, who is a senior
environmentalist, Herbert Grimshaw, who is a
research environmentalist, Lorraine Janus, who is
a senior environmentalist, Les Vilchek, who is a
research environmentalist, and Patty Sime, who is
a technician.
Q. What computers are utilized in the
environment planning division?
A. I use an IBM AT and a SUN 4386.
Q. What software packages do you utilize on
the IBM AT?
A. Word Perfect and Symphony.
Q. What type of work do you do on the IBM AT?
A. Mostly word processing.
Q. And what software packages do you utilize
9
on the SUN 4386?
A. ARC/INFO.
Q. Any others?
A. No.
Q. What work do you do on the SUN?
A. I'm training Les Vilchek and Patty Sime in
using ARC/INFO to update wetland maps.
Q. Are these wetland maps you refer to on the
computer?
A. Yes.
Q. What computer are they on?
A. Most of them are on a DEC computer, which
is accessed through the SUN. The remainder are on
the SUN itself.
Q. What are the locations of the wetland maps
on the SUN?
A. Well, they're located on the hard drive
now.
Q. What locations do the maps cover?
A. Oh, what part of Florida?
Q. Okay.
A. All right. Mostly the western part of the
Water Management District, but including parts of
the Everglades systems.
Q. And what are the geographic locations on
10
the wetland maps on the DEC?
A. The same areas.
Q. Are there wetland maps covering Everglades
National Park?
A. No.
Q. Are there wetland maps on either the DEC
or the SUN covering the Water Conservation Areas?
A. I'm not certain.
Q. Are there wetland maps on either the DEC
or the SUN covering the Everglades Agricultural
Areas?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know on which computer?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who produced the wetland maps
we've been discussing?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is that?
A. The Federal Government, the national
wetlands inventory.
Q. Do you know which counties the wetlands
map cover?
MS. STOLLMAN: I don't want you to
speculate, if you don't know.
A. Well, there are some in Collier and Hendry
11
and Broward County, I believe, but there very well
may be others that I'm not certain of.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) Is there any listing of the
wetlands maps?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is that listing?
A. On the wall of Les Vilchek's office.
Q. You indicated that you're training Les and
Patty to update the wetland maps?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the data that's being utilized to
update the wetland maps?
A. Spot satellite imagery.
Q. And what geographic locations are covered
by the spot satellite imagery?
A. I'm not certain.
Q. Who would know?
A. Brent Moll.
Q. Is there any order to the wetlands maps
being updated?
A. I don't understand.
Q. Is there any prioritization being done to
which maps or being updated?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that prioritization?
12
A. The western part of the district is being
done first.
Q. What features on the wetlands maps are
being updated?
A. The actual locations of wetlands and
uplands.
Q. Are there any other perimeters or features
being taken from the spot satellite imagery to
update the wetlands maps?
A. Locations of new roads.
Q. Any other features?
A. No.
Q. Is any actual verification or ground
truthing being done?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is doing that?
A. Les Vilchek and Patty Sime.
Q. Is there other geographic information that
you're aware of stored on the Water Management
District's computers besides the wetland maps
mentioned?
A. Yes.
Q. What geographic information is that?
A. There's land use, land covered data.
Q. Any other?
13
A. Not that I'm directly certain of.
Q. Where is this land use, land cover data
stored?
MS. STOLLMAN: In what computer
system.
A. I do not know.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) Who would know?
A. Bob Brown.
Q. Do other divisions within the Water
Management District have access to the wetland map
data you have been referring to?
A. Yes.
Q. What divisions would those be?
A. The Water Supply Planning Division, that
Sharon Trost is the director of, that is all.
Q. Are there other entities outside the Water
Management District that have access to the
wetland map data?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Do you know whether the updating of the
wetlands maps is part of the data base development
for GIS?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you know when the GIS data base will be
operational?
14
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of what data exists in the
Water Management District's digital image
processing system?
A. No.
Q. What data is going into the geographical
information system?
A. There is a list, and I can remember a few
things off of that list.
Q. Whatever you can remember.
A. Property owned by the district, locations
of sampling stations for water quality or other
kinds of samples, the USGS digital line graph data
for the region. This shows location of
hydrographic features, the roads and trails, the
land use, land cover data, the wetland -- wet data
that we had mentioned previously. I am certain
that I have forgotten a number of other kinds of
data.
Q. Does that list you mentioned have a name?
A. I don't remember whether it has a name.
Q. Where is this list located?
A. Bob Brown certainly has a copy.
Q. Are there analyses that have been done on
the data in the geographical information system?
15
MS. STOLLMAN: Do you need some
clarification?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Perhaps in the
sense that we don't have a full geographic
information system yet -- and no, but some -- some
analysis has been done of geographic data on the
computer.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) Have any of the analyses
that have been done relate to the Water
Conservation Areas?
A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. Have any of the analyses that have been
done relate to the Everglades Agricultural Area?
A. Again, not that I am aware of.
Q. Have any of the analyses that have been
done relate to Everglades National Park?
A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. Who has performed the analyses?
MS. STOLLMAN: Which analyses are you
referring to?
MS. NASH: He said there were some
analyses that had been done using the data in GIS
system. He was not aware of what they relate to,
and so I'm trying to find out who's performed them.
A. Patty Sime has recently performed an
16
analysis.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) On what geographic location
or locations?
A. The lands that are part of the Miccosukee
Indian Reservation.
Q. Do you know whether it's a part of the
reservation along the Tamiami Trail?
A. No, it is not.
Q. Do you know whether the wetlands maps you
were referring to earlier have been utilized to
detect vegetation changes?
MS. STOLLMAN: I object to that
question. I don't think that's relevant here.
MS. NASH: I'm trying to find out
what data is on the computer.
MS. STOLLMAN: Well, you've
identified the maps that are on the computer and
what they contained. What they're used for is not
relevant to what exists.
MS. NASH: The maps are not, but the
data files that are on the computer -- I'm trying
to find out what data files are on the computer.
MS. STOLLMAN: Well, I don't think
the question --
MS. NASH: If data files have been
17
generated as a result of doing analyses of the
maps, I'm entitled to know that.
MS. STOLLMAN: I will permit the
witness to answer questions with respect to
whether data files have been created.
MS. NASH: Question 5 goes directly
to what data analyses exist, and he says he is
responsive to Question 5.
MS. STOLLMAN: I understand that.
MS. NASH: I'm trying to find out
whether there are any data analyses that exist that
have utilized the wetlands maps and detect
vegetation changes, and I am entitled to that
information.
MS. STOLLMAN: I have just stated
that I will permit the witness to answer questions
with respect to whether data files have been
created using the wetlands maps and vegetation, if
you know.
A. No. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) Is your answer that no
analyses have been done to detect vegetation
changes or that there are no data files that exist
with those analyses?
MS. STOLLMAN: What is your -- could
18
we have the question read back and then you can
answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Please, if you would
repeat the question.
(WHEREUPON, the requested testimony
was read back by the court reporter.)
MS. STOLLMAN: You may answer that
question with respect to data files on the computer
system.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) My question is: Whether
there are data analyses, whether the actual
analyses, are presently in a file on a computer or
not?
MS. STOLLMAN: All right. You may
answer that question then.
A. No. There are no analyses that I'm aware
of on the computer system, on that particular
topic.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) Do you know which part of
the Miccosukee Reservation Patty Sime did her
analysis?
A. Yes.
Q. What part?
19
A. I mean, I know it in the sense that I
could show you on a map. It is the part that's
being proposed to have some development. The
Alligator Alley passes through it -- and passes
through it, passes over the top of it perhaps. It
would be safest if I could show you on a map, but
the L28 -- part of the L28 canal forms a boundary
of this region.
MR. RICHARDS: Can I have the
question back, please, that he's responding to?
(WHEREUPON, the requested testimony
was read back by the court reporter.)
MS. STOLLMAN: Why don't we identify
what it is that the witness is looking at here.
THE WITNESS: It's a map of the South
Florida Water Management District. Patty Sime
analyzed this area.
MS. STOLLMAN: And this is an
analysis that she performed on the computer system?
THE WITNESS: She did, yes.
MS. STOLLMAN: And does that area
that you've pointed to have a name?
THE WITNESS: Not that I know of.
20
THE WITNESS: What are the
coordinates on the map where it's located?
THE WITNESS: It looks like N11.
Q. (By Ms. Nash) Now, Mr. Black, you
indicated that you're also responsive to No. 9.
What satellite imagery are you aware of that the
Water Management District has covering the Water
Conservation Areas?
A. I know there is spot imagery in the
district that covers the Water Conservation Areas.
Q. And what satellite imagery are you aware
of covering the Everglades Agricultural Area?
A. There is spot imagery that covers that,
also.
Q. And what satellite imagery are you aware
of that covers the Everglades National Park?
A. I'm not aware of what satellite imagery
covers that area.
Q. Do you know the dates on that satellite
imagery?
A. No.
Q. Who would know?
A. Brent Moll.
Q. Where is that satellite imagery located?
A. I'm not certain.
21
Q. Who would know?
A. Brent Moll.
Q. Are you aware of what vegetative mapping the
Water Management District has on Water Conservation
Areas?
A. No, I'm not aware of what vegetation maps
we have.
Q. Are you aware of any vegetative mapping
the district has on Everglades National Park?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of what vegetative mapping
the district has on the Everglades Agricultural
Area?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who would be familiar with
what vegetative mapping the district has?
A. Dewey Worth would know more about it than
I would.
Q. Are you aware of what remote sensing
information the Water Management District has?
A. Yes, I'm aware of certain remote sensing
information.
Q. What is that remote sensing information
that you're aware of?
A. Spot imagery in the western part of the
22
district. Also, there's land sat imagery for
certain parts of the district that I happen to be
personally aware of.
Q. What parts of the district are you aware
of that have land sat imagery?
A. I'm not certain what parts the imagery is
of. I didn't mean to indicate that I'm aware that
land sat imagery has been purchased.
Q. And who would be most knowledgeable about
the land sat?
A. Brent Moll.
Q. Are you aware of any GIS or CADD data
files that would show the distribution of nutrient
contents in any part of the Water Management
District?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who would know whether such
files exist?
A. I would ask Tom Fontaine.
Q. Are you aware of what list of the
satellite imagery that the Water Management
District has?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where that list is located?
A. In Brent Moll's office.
23
Q. Are there any other locations for that
list?
A. Not that I'm certain of.
Q. As the wetlands maps are being updated,
are any historical records being kept of the older
information?
A. The original information is retained.
Q. And where is that original information
retained?
A. On tapes. I don't know where those tapes
are.
Q. Is there a name by which you could access
that information off the tapes?
A. I don't understand.
Q. If you wanted to request historical
information, how would you ask for it?
A. I would ask for the national wetland
inventory maps.
Q. Do you know how far back in time the
inventory goes?
A. Yes. 1972 in certain areas.
MS. NASH: I have no further
questions.
MS. STOLLMAN: Would you like to
take a break before we continue?
24
THE WITNESS: Okay.
(Short break.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION
QUESTION BY MR. RICHARDS:
Q. Mr. Black, my name is Joe Richards. I
represent the cities of Belle Glade and Clewiston.
When you were talking about the wetland
area maps that covered mostly the western part of
the Water Management District, you also mentioned
that it covers part of the Everglades system; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What part of the Everglades system is
covered?
A. Well, I know that part of the Miccosukee
Reservation that Patty Sime worked on is covered,
and I do not know how much more of the system is
covered.
Q. Who would know the answer to that
question?
A. Les Vilchek.
Q. Could you spell his last name for me?
25
A. V-i-l-c-h-e-k.
Q. And you also mentioned that the wetland
map covered the Everglades Agricultural Area. Do
you know if that's the entire area or only certain
portions?
A. Just certain portions.
Q. Do you know what portions?
A. No.
Q. Who would know?
A. Les Vilchek.
Q. Prior to the update of these maps that you
mentioned using the spot imagery, has the Water
Management District added any other information to
the national wetlands inventory maps?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether these maps indicate
vegetation types?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. It indicates vegetation species?
A. No.
Q. It just delineates between wetland and
upland?
A. No, it distinguishes a number of
categories of wetland.
Q. What are those categories?
26
A. I do not know all of the categories.
Q. Could you list the ones you do know?
A. Assiduous, broadly, forested wetland,
assiduous, narrowly, forested wetland, evergreen
broadly, forested wetland, emergent marsh, et
cetera.
Q. No particular species are identified?
A. No.
Q. In what format were these national wetland
inventory maps, the original format of the maps,
obtained by the district?
A. Paper.
Q. And the district converted them into
computer format?
A. The district had them converted.
Q. Who converted them?
A. GNX Martel.
Q. And you mentioned that Mr. Vilchek and
Patty Sime performed some ground truthing; is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know the time frame of this ground
truthing relative to the date of the maps, or the
images rather, that were used?
A. I don't entirely understand.
27
Q. They performed some ground truthing of the
satellite imagery, right?
A. They think of it as ground truthing of the
wetland maps.
Q. And the information that they were
performing the ground truthing for, that was from
the spot satellite imagery; is that correct?
A. The spot imagery and the wetland map cover
the same area. They visited the area --
Q. To perform the --
A. -- and then put the information --
associated the information with the map.
Q. Was any ground truthing done to verify
what was contained in the spot imagery?
A. That was not the purpose of the ground
truthing.
Q. What was the purpose?
A. Some were to -- to verify the accuracy of
the national wetlands inventory match themselves.
Q. When was this ground truthing performed?
A. At various times over the past year, I'm
aware they have ground truthed.
Q. You mentioned that the GIS system will
contain the location of water quality and other
sampling stations; is that correct?
28
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where this sampling station
location information is obtained from?
A. The data management division of the
district keeps most of those records.
Q. Do you know who within the data management
division?
A. I would ask Rob Startzman.
Q. Do you know whether the sampling station
information that will be inputted into the GIS
system is complete?
MS. STOLLMAN: You can answer to the
extent you know.
A. I'm not entirely clear.
MS. STOLLMAN: Could you clarify the
question, please?
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Do you know whether
this information that will be put in the GIS system
contains this information for all the district's
sampling stations?
A. I don't know whether some of them have
been missed.
Q. Who would know?
A. I would ask Rob Startzman.
Q. Do you know how many sampling stations are
29
contained in this information?
A. No.
Q. You stated that Patty Sime did some GIS
work on the Miccosukee Indian Reservation. What
was the nature of this work?
MS. STOLLMAN: You can answer that to
the extent that it's necessary to identify the work
that she did on the computer.
A. She --
MS. STOLLMAN: In addition, I would
add that this has been asked and answered. We
discussed this during the course of Beverly Nash's
questions.
MR. RICHARDS: I don't believe we
did.
A. She simply analyzed how much of what kind
of wetland was proposed by the Indians for, and
what kind of development.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Do you know when this
analysis was performed?
A. Within the last month.
Q. Where is this information stored? Do you
know in what computer?
A. I'm not certain.
Q. Where do you think it would be stored?
30
MS. STOLLMAN: I don't want you to
speculate.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) If you have some idea.
MS. STOLLMAN: He's answered that he
is not certain.
THE WITNESS: Well --
MS. STOLLMAN: I don't want you to
speculate on where it might be stored. If you
don't know, I don't want you to answer the
question.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Do you have some idea?
A. Well, on the SUN work station that she
works on, or on the DEC computer in Brent Moll's
office, which was connected to the network.
Q. In regard to the land sat imagery you
mentioned, do you know what version of land sat
photography that is?
A. Oh, I'm not sure of what you're asking.
MS. STOLLMAN: Could you clarify the
question.
A. Unless the map or imagery is the answer.
MR. RICHARDS: Yes.
A. Then, that is the type of imagery.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Do you know whether
any analysis has been performed on this land sat
31
imagery?
A. I'm not aware of any.
Q. Are you aware of what alga rhythm will be
used to analyze this satellite imagery?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who would be aware of that?
A. Brent Moll maybe would be more likely to
know than I.
Q. Other than the use of the spot imagery for
the national wetlands inventory, are you aware of
any other analysis of spot imagery?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. There was an analysis of change between
two different dates, and the spot panchromatic
data that was related to lakes, properties, and a
possible violation of permitting rules.
Q. Who performed this analysis?
A. Brent Moll.
Q. Are you aware of any other use of the spot
or land sat imagery?
A. I know that Brent Moll has done some other
work with it.
Q. Do you know what type of work was done?
MS. STOLLMAN: You can answer to the
32
extent you can recall.
A. I can't remember specific projects.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Are you aware of any
projects that you used satellite imagery to show
changes in vegetation patterns?
A. No.
Q. If the district was doing such work, do
you know who would be aware of that?
A. Brent Moll.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Or Dewey Worth.
Q. Are you aware of the ARC/INFO coverages?
A. Yes.
Q. Are these ARC/INFO coverages organized by
county?
A. I'm only aware of certain ARC/INFO
coverages.
Q. Do you know by what geographic areas these
coverages are organized?
A. The ARC/INFO system that we have organizes
everything within a state plane coordinate system,
so that any particular area can be identified by
its looming state plane coordinates, and data can
be recovered for that area.
Q. What coverages are you familiar with?
33
A. The national wetland inventory maps that
we have out exist as ARC/INFO coverages. The land
use, land cover data has been largely or totally
converted to ARC/INFO coverages. The roads and
trails hydrography maps from the USGS have been
converted to ARC/INFO coverages. I am certain that
there are others that I'm not directly remembering.
Q. Are you aware of how many national wetland
inventory maps were converted?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who would know that?
A. Les Vilchek.
Q. In regard to the wetland inventory, you
said that they were recently updated, do you know
how many times they have been updated prior to this
last time?
A. This is the first time that the district
has updated any of these maps. I believe that the
Federal Government has updated some of the maps.
Q. Are you aware of the loss of any data
files by the district?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of any quality assurance or
quality control guidelines utilized within your
division?
34
MS. STOLLMAN: Are you asking with
respect to the computer systems?
MR. RICHARDS: Yes.
A. These are under development.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Who is developing them?
A. A committee.
Q. Do you know who is on the committee?
A. Bob Brown is the chairman of the
committee, I am a member, Rob Startzman is a
member, and there are several other members.
Q. Do you know who they are?
A. Bill Haight, Brent Moll, and I have
forgotten a couple.
Q. These guidelines that are being developed,
is this specific to the environmental planning
division?
A. No.
Q. What areas of the district are being
covered?
A. The guidelines are being developed for the
geographic information system for the district.
Q. When do you expect those guidelines to be
completed?
A. No date has been set.
Q. When do you expect it to be completed?
35
MS. STOLLMAN: Asked and answered.
MR. RICHARDS: I don't believe so
counsel.
MS. STOLLMAN: Asked and answered.
Could you read the question before the one
pending and the response?
(WHEREUPON, the requested testimony
was read back by the court reporter.)
A. I don't know when it will be completed. I
hope soon.
Q. (By Mr. Richards) The committee hasn't
set a time frame for when the guidelines should be
completed?
MS. STOLLMAN: You've asked this
question several times and in several different
ways --
MR. RICHARDS: And he hasn't answered
it yet.
MS. STOLLMAN: -- and he's testified
that he doesn't know.
A. Well, that's what I was trying to say,
that no time has been set by the committee for
completing this project.
36
Q. (By Mr. Richards) Do you expect to have a
published document for these guidelines?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what it will be called?
A. No.
MR. RICHARDS: I have no further
questions. Thank you.
(The deposition was concluded at 4:47
o'clock p.m.)
37
I, DAVID W. BLACK, do hereby certify
that I have read the foregoing transcript of my
deposition given on 28th day, August, 1990; that
together with the correction page attached hereto
noting changes in form or substance, if any, it is
true and correct.
_____________________________
DAVID W. BLACK
I do hereby certify that the
depostion of DAVID W. BLACK was submitted to the
witness for reading and signing; that after he had
stated to the undersigned Notary Public that he had
read and examined his depositon, he signed the
same in the presence of the undersigned authority
on the _____ day of ____________, 1990.
_____________________________
Notary Public
My Commission expires: _______
|
